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Dyslexic Cavers...

D

Dep

Guest
graham said:
Does anyone recall on the old "Caver's Digest"? There was someone who used to post in "free form" English; that is he used to write a series of clauses or sub-clauses linked by ellipsis but without forming a single coherent sentence. It was unbelievably annoying to (attempt to) read.

It was also certainly not a case of dyslexia or any other similar condition.

Language is a tool used for communication. If its usage is hindering rather than assisting communication then the user may require assistance.

...but not from the spell-checker that comes with this board!


I suspect that what you describe is not claimed as dyslexia though and rather a case of someone who has "an individualistic style and to hell with anyone who doesn't like it"?

I can also think of another different example - what about those who did not excel at school and were/are genuinely crap at English?

Does that mean that their write-ups are less entertaining?

Does my 'superior' education standard give me the right to point out their errors to them, or should I not just use my admin privileges and webmaster's prerogative to quietly edit their articles to readability?

I do understand where you're coming from on this Graham, I too hate to read things that are badly written or spelt but I usually manage to live with it, only very rarely do I comment on it to people, and usually only for other reasons.


Do you still advocate the use of the spell-checker as a tool for dyslexics or the poorly educated?
 
cap 'n chris said:
Sid Weighells Dog said:
Dep - I read your post carefully (and I agree with it). My post was in reaction to the quote that you posted (ie this bit:  Can anyone highlight any examples of well constructed, albeit poorly spelt, thoughtful, logical and thought-provoking observations written by dyslexics or, call me cynical, is the condition generally just being used as a scapegoat by the academically lacking?). That bit has been done to death.

Are/is there any/an example forthcoming?

Well, Einstein and Churchill have been mentioned - they're thoughtful and thought-provoking in my book.

Can you, in your turn, provide an example of someone successfully faking dyslexia in the face of a proper assessment?
 
D

Dep

Guest
Sid Weighells Dog said:
cap 'n chris said:
Sid Weighells Dog said:
Dep - I read your post carefully (and I agree with it). My post was in reaction to the quote that you posted (ie this bit:  Can anyone highlight any examples of well constructed, albeit poorly spelt, thoughtful, logical and thought-provoking observations written by dyslexics or, call me cynical, is the condition generally just being used as a scapegoat by the academically lacking?). That bit has been done to death.

Are/is there any/an example forthcoming?

Well, Einstein and Churchill have been mentioned - they're thoughtful and thought-provoking in my book.

Can you, in your turn, provide an example of someone successfully faking dyslexia in the face of a proper assessment?

That's a good question - CnC you started this, can you?
 

graham

New member
Sid Weighells Dog said:
Well, Einstein and Churchill have been mentioned - they're thoughtful and thought-provoking in my book.

From www.winstonchurchill.org

Q : On "Larry King Live" before his inauguration, President George W. Bush said that Winston Churchill suffered from dyslexia. Is this so?

A: While Churchill may have had traits of dyslexia (learning disability), it seems more likely that he was a gifted child who was bored quickly. He probably inherited his father's prodigious intellect. His later life is marked by traits more associated with a mild depression- dysthymia or seasonal affective disorder syndrome - which has been associated with individuals of great creativity and genius. Those of us with "normal" development and intelligence can hardy imagine the workings of the mind of a gifted child; the education system in England probably lacked capacity to meet his needs. He was a real self-learner and his time in India during his first posting as a Lieutenant in the Hussars is an example of how capable he was of self-improvement and satisfying his intellectual curiosity. - John H. Mather MD


And from http://www.audiblox2000.com/dyslexia_dyslexic/dyslexia005.htm

Einstein’s Biographers Disprove Claim that He was Dyslexic
The popular image that men of eminence are learning disabled promotes an aura of romanticism around the learning disabilities (LD) field. Albert Einstein, arguably the greatest scientist of all time, is usually at the top of the list of famous dyslexics.

According to LD lore Einstein failed to talk until the age of four, the result of a language disability. It is also claimed that Einstein could not read until the age of nine. To strengthen their case LD proponents point to such facts that Einstein failed his first attempt at entrance into college and lost three teaching positions in two years.

While this makes a nice story, this widely believed notion is false, according to Ronald W. Clark's comprehensive biography of Einstein, and according to Subtle is the Lord: The Science and Life of Albert Einstein, a biography by Abraham Pais (Oxford University Press, 1982).

Pais states that although his family had initial apprehensions that he might be backward because of the unusually long time before he began to talk, Einstein was speaking in whole sentences by some point between age two and three years. According to Clark, a far more plausible reason for his relatively late speech development is “the simpler situation suggested by Einstein's son Hans Albert, who says that his father was withdrawn from the world even as a boy.” Whether one accepts this interpretation, other information helps us to judge Einstein's language abilities after he began to speak.

Einstein entered school at the age of six, and against popular belief did very well. When he was seven his mother wrote, “Yesterday Albert received his grades, he was again number one, his report card was brilliant.” At the age of twelve Einstein was reading physics books. At thirteen, after reading the Critique of Pure Reason and the work of other philosophers, Einstein adopted Kant as his favorite author. About this time he also read Darwin. Pais states, “the widespread belief that he was a poor student is unfounded.”

FAILING HIS COLLEGE ENTRANCE EXAMS

True, Einstein did not pass the college exam the first time he took it. However, aside from being only sixteen, two years below the usual age, the plain fact was he did not study for it. His father wanted his son to follow a technical occupation, a decision Einstein found difficult to confront directly. Consequently, as he later admitted, he avoided following the “unbearable” path of a “practical profession” by not preparing himself for the test.

It is also true that, after graduating from the university, Einstein had difficulty finding a post. This was mainly because his independent, intellectually rebellious nature made him, in his own words, “a pariah” in the academic community. One professor told him, “You have one fault; one can't tell you anything.”

Also true is that Einstein went through three jobs in a short time, but not because of a learning disability. His first job was as a temporary research assistant, the second as temporary replacement for a professor who had to serve a two-month term in the army. Clark remarks that it is “difficult to discover but easy to imagine” why Einstein held his third job, as a teacher in a boarding school, for only a few months: “Einstein's ideas of minimum routine and minimum discipline were very different from those of his employer.”
 
C

cucc Paul

Guest
Interesting conversation this. I am dyslexic; some one noticed this fact in year 2 at primary school. I was then offered additional support and encouragement and my grades increased rapidly. When I entered secondary school I had to sit a series of IQ tests to allow us to be “set”, put in groups according to our ability. Despite my very good results I was put in the bottom set due to my dyslexia, when I should have been in one of the top sets. This was rectified after lots of lobbying from my old primary school, my parents and myself. Towards the end of GCSE’s and through A levels I decided to decline offers given to me for extended time in exams and allowances on the basis that I wanted to prove I could do as well as everyone else on the same grounds, I have maintained this attitude through out university.

I frequently write posts very quickly and read them back to myself only once as people have mentioned the nature of forums is a less formal one. In comparison to this it took me almost a week to correct my dissertation for spelling, grammar and punctuation.

I hate spell checkers as I can frequently spell a word wrong 3 different ways in the same passage and the spell check will not be able to offer the word I am looking for. If you consider I had 4 words within this short passage that the spell checker could not offer the right word for it becomes very time consuming.

As for Dep’s comments I do believe him to be correct and that caving concentrates people with dyslexia, and many of them are more capable cavers than “normal” people. However you wont find many of them on this forum.
 

Jopo

Active member
and many of them are more capable cavers than “normal” people. However you wont find many of them on this forum.

Which is a great shame and not helped by some comments in this thread.

So have a go at me now.

Jopo
 
D

Dep

Guest
graham said:
From www.winstonchurchill.org
Q : On "Larry King Live" before his inauguration, President George W. Bush said that Winston Churchill suffered from dyslexia. Is this so?
A: While Churchill may have had traits of dyslexia (learning disability), it seems more likely that he was a gifted child who was bored quickly
...
And from http://www.audiblox2000.com/dyslexia_dyslexic/dyslexia005.htm
Einstein’s Biographers Disprove Claim that He was Dyslexic
...

Churchill I was unaware of, but I have always viewed Einstein's supposed childhood 'backwardness' and alleged dyslexia as dubious.

So let's step back for a moment and see what we do agree on, or what has been demonstrated or attested to so far:

# Dyslexia is real.
# Genuine dyslexia can be managed with effort on the part of the sufferer, but in a 'fast' response environment such as this forum it is not always easy.
# The spell-checker is of little help here - and it isn't really very good!
# Badly written text can be the result of factors other than dyslexia or laziness - we're not all grammar school boys or university graduates!
# It is usually possible and often quite easy to identify errors in an individual's posts (if there are enough examples) and decide for oneself if they are: dyslexic, poorly educated, or just plain lazy.
# ...and based on the above point one can therefore decide whether to; make allowances, put up with them, or ignore and/or chastise them.
# As long as posts are understandable that's all that really matters, and if they aren't a polite request for clarification will usually be answered.
# And those who are privileged/lucky to have the skill and faculties to write to a high standard should do so and rightfully pride themselves on it - but also realise that it's bit like proverbially p**sing yourself in a wetsuit.


(Ooh - no errors so far in the spell-checker!  :sneaky:)

Finally: Go and poke about in other forums on more 'chavvy' subjects, and specifically those that have far less academic bias than caving. Then realise that the general standard of writing on this forum is very very high indeed.



Anyway; moving back onto the real subject of this thread which was less obvious perhaps...

I made the point regarding 'dyslexia and related syndromes' - Google it...

http://www.uwe.ac.uk/csa/drc/dyslexia.shtml
A short pertinent quote from the above page:
The neurological difference can also confer strengths, such as skills in:
problem-solving,
visualisation,
creativity,
spatial awareness,
innovation and lateral thinking.


I have come across many references to this elsewhere, I only just a had a quick flit through Google results whilst writing this post, but there is plenty more out there.

So the real question is: Does caving attract a higher proportion of dyslexics than would otherwise be found in the general population?
 

kay

Well-known member
graham said:
I find it really somewhat wry that this thread started with DP criticising me (again).

I would have thought that any genuinely dyslexic but intellectually committed individual would appreciate the use of a tool that would make their posts more comprehensible to others.

Surely this forum is all about communication and a tool that assists in improving communication would be appreciated by all.  :confused:

I've never found DP's posts to be anything but comprehensible. My son is dyslexic, and use of a 'normal' spell checker if anything decreases comprehension - he is often unable to select the correct word from the choices given (sometimes the spelling is so bizarre the correct word is not even there) and bizarre spellings that give some approximation to the sound of the word he is after are replaced by perfectly spelt words that have nothing whatever to do with the word he originally thought of.

He has now acquired a spell checker designed specifically for dyslexics, but I haven't seen any of his work using that, so I don't know whether it's an improvement.
 

Les W

Active member
Dep said:
So the real question is: Does caving attract a higher proportion of dyslexics than would otherwise be found in the general population?

All the dyslexics I know are cavers.

But then again, most of the people I know are cavers.  :-\
 
D

darkplaces

Guest
kay said:
I've never found DP's posts to be anything but comprehensible.
....and yet slightly evil, like taking soil into Oz.  :ras:
 

kay

Well-known member
c**tplaces said:
kay said:
I've never found DP's posts to be anything but comprehensible.
....and yet slightly evil, like taking soil into Oz.  :ras:

Correction - I have now found one of DP's posts to be incomprehensible! ;)
 

Rachel

Active member
I've just come out of the adult basic skills class I teach at college, having given a dyslexic student a thorough bollocking along the lines that syndromes related to dyslexia do NOT include the inability to get out of bed, the inability to get textbooks out of bags or the inability to do coursework rather than surf the net into the early hours. Everybody who comes to my classes has by definition (that's education dept definition, not mine) 'failed' at their education the first time round, and more than half the people I come across are middle aged dyslexics - old enough to have experienced the difficulties dyslexia brings, but too old to have benefited from proper diagnosis and help in the classroom. These are absolutely my favourite students - they've spent the last 20 years having to work harder than everyone else to get the same result and so have developed such a work ethic that once they get their correctly coloured paper/blue glasses/whatever, they absolutely fly through the syllabus and leave the rest of the class trailing. I can't say the same about the younger lot though. Yes, I know there are bound to be lovely hard working youngsters out there, but my personal experience has been that a large number of teenagers who have been given a diagnosis of dyslexia tend to play it up and use it to the maximum advantage to get away with as little as they can. I'm talking about characteristics of teenagers here BTW, not characteristics of people with dyslexia. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that people come in ALL combinations of dyslexic or not, hardworking or bone idle and whatever software is available to translate jumbled postings, there will be some people who need to use it but can't be arsed clicking on a button. And that brings me back to the lad I was bollocking just now...
 

Billy Butcombe

New member
Turns the idea of what might be considered `normal' on its head. At least if you have difficulty with reading and writing you can still go caving. :alien:
 
D

Dep

Guest
cap 'n chris said:
Thanks, Rachel; you have succinctly outlined my previously simmering hunch/suspicion.  :hug:

I have no doubts that there are those out there who 'milk it'...

But I think the same could be said of any type of affliction that could impact one's capablities.
You will always get a split between determined people who will fight their disability or problem all the way and gain strength of character etc as Rachel suggests, and there will be those who are rather less determined and who use their problem as an excuse. That's just human nature.

But the question here is: Is their a higher incidence of dyslexia amongst cavers and other underground explorers than the general population?

Kay's mention of a spell checker designed with dyslexics in mind is intriguing.
How does it differ in use from a regular one?
Does it combine a thesaurus perhaps to display synonyms.
Can it handle words that sound the same but have different meanings (ie ware, wear, where)
Is it something that exists on the net or purchased/supplied third party software?
 

kay

Well-known member
Dep said:
Kay's mention of a spell checker designed with dyslexics in mind is intriguing.
How does it differ in use from a regular one?
Does it combine a thesaurus perhaps to display synonyms.
Can it handle words that sound the same but have different meanings (ie ware, wear, where)
Is it something that exists on the net or purchased/supplied third party software?

A 'normal' spell checker works very much on letter substitutions - the suggestions it gives are of words in its dictionary which differ in one or two letters from what has been typed. Thus the Word spellchecker  gives no suggestions at all for the  6th word in "this one says its been serjested by the NUS" (from one of my son's emails).

It was briefly explained to me that the 'dyslexic' one tries to identify similar sounding words, and I have an idea it also gives a brief definition of each suggested word (I may be completely wrong about that) which would help with the problem of trying to select which of the list of suggestions you want. It was purchased from a company which specialises in software to aid those with disabilities. I'll see if I can find out more about it for you.
 
D

Dep

Guest
c**tplaces said:
I'm not fecking disabled, I am handy-capable  :mad:


disability or problem  - a generalisation. No one considers you as disabled.
To me disabled means something fairly fundamental; unable to walk - unable to see, unable to function mentally etc etc, in many ways a disablity is something that cannot by definition be overcome completely.
 
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