Ebbing and Flowing Well, Giggleswick
- Thread starter hannahb
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Pitlamp
Well-known member
Just in from work and a bit behind on this thread. Unfortunately as it was the wee small hours of the morning and we'd had our fair share in the Peak Hotel, I can't remember details of the other ideas of Ben's. It was a fair few years ago as well.
Speaking of that device in Reservoir Hole, I remember seeing it and being inspired enough to write to Willie Stanton about it. He sent me a beautiful diagram of how it worked. I'll still have this somewhere (but it'd be a major epic to lay my hands on it). However I'm not sure that's relevant to this discussion because it had moving parts - which is not a good model to apply to a natural siphon in a cave system.
Those diagrams do look very much like Ben's set up which he demonstrated that night.
I have a vague memory that there might have been something published in a BCRA Cave Science a long time ago (perhaps during Trevor Ford's editorship) about possible mechanisms for natural siphons. Anyone remember this?
I also have a much more vivid memory of the first time I encountered the Whirlpool Rising siphon in Speedwell, back in 1980. Two of us had gone in Speedwell via Treasury Sump - bear in mind this was still in the days when hardly anyone could go in Speedwell; virtually no-one was allowed in via the level and the overland route via Wind Tunnel and the Trenches had yet to be discovered. We'd heard about the siphoning action at Whirlpool Rising but I'd never taken in seriously, assuming it'd be like the Ebbing & Flowing Well which I'd stared at for hours until I convinced myself it was moving. After a real battle in wet conditions against "the most violent and combative streamway" in the country (as it was once described) we set off up Whirlpool Passage. Suddenly there was a roaring noise and then a wall of water appeared round the corner. It was absolutely terrifying but there was no-where to go; we just scrambled as high as possible in the passage until, almost as quickly, the flow abated back to what it was beforehand. We scuttled off sharpish back to the main streamway and watched - then it happened again - and again, etc. I wouldn't be spooked by it nowadays but being unfamiliar with this siphon effect in such a wet cave in semi flood conditions it really frightened us that day. I've never seen anything quite like it anywhere else.
Speaking of that device in Reservoir Hole, I remember seeing it and being inspired enough to write to Willie Stanton about it. He sent me a beautiful diagram of how it worked. I'll still have this somewhere (but it'd be a major epic to lay my hands on it). However I'm not sure that's relevant to this discussion because it had moving parts - which is not a good model to apply to a natural siphon in a cave system.
Those diagrams do look very much like Ben's set up which he demonstrated that night.
I have a vague memory that there might have been something published in a BCRA Cave Science a long time ago (perhaps during Trevor Ford's editorship) about possible mechanisms for natural siphons. Anyone remember this?
I also have a much more vivid memory of the first time I encountered the Whirlpool Rising siphon in Speedwell, back in 1980. Two of us had gone in Speedwell via Treasury Sump - bear in mind this was still in the days when hardly anyone could go in Speedwell; virtually no-one was allowed in via the level and the overland route via Wind Tunnel and the Trenches had yet to be discovered. We'd heard about the siphoning action at Whirlpool Rising but I'd never taken in seriously, assuming it'd be like the Ebbing & Flowing Well which I'd stared at for hours until I convinced myself it was moving. After a real battle in wet conditions against "the most violent and combative streamway" in the country (as it was once described) we set off up Whirlpool Passage. Suddenly there was a roaring noise and then a wall of water appeared round the corner. It was absolutely terrifying but there was no-where to go; we just scrambled as high as possible in the passage until, almost as quickly, the flow abated back to what it was beforehand. We scuttled off sharpish back to the main streamway and watched - then it happened again - and again, etc. I wouldn't be spooked by it nowadays but being unfamiliar with this siphon effect in such a wet cave in semi flood conditions it really frightened us that day. I've never seen anything quite like it anywhere else.
SamT
Moderator
Wasn't a flopjack just a hinged bucket that filled till the top half was heavier than the bottom half and it tipped over emptying the bucket, which then righted itself and continued filling again.
I built one for a dig in bagshawe. Worked perfectly on the surface. Got taken to the dig sight but was never implemented, and thus is sat there an rotted until it got taken out again.
Great device, but not strictly anything to do with siphons, unless I'm thinking of a different sort of flopjack.
I built one for a dig in bagshawe. Worked perfectly on the surface. Got taken to the dig sight but was never implemented, and thus is sat there an rotted until it got taken out again.
Great device, but not strictly anything to do with siphons, unless I'm thinking of a different sort of flopjack.
Roger W
Well-known member
Try here:
http://www.hughendon.btinternet.co.uk/CPCRecords/Photos/ClodDyke/ClodDyke.htm
Go down to Sat 7th October 2006
and follow the link to the film.
I could probably have linked directly to the video, but the page is well worth reading...
http://www.hughendon.btinternet.co.uk/CPCRecords/Photos/ClodDyke/ClodDyke.htm
Go down to Sat 7th October 2006
and follow the link to the film.
I could probably have linked directly to the video, but the page is well worth reading...
SamT
Moderator
cheers - and as I thought - no siphon.
http://www.hughendon.btinternet.co.uk/CPCRecords/Photos/ClodDyke/ClodDyke.WMV
http://www.hughendon.btinternet.co.uk/CPCRecords/Photos/ClodDyke/ClodDyke.WMV
cap n chris
Well-known member
SamT said:
:-[ Mea culpa! - You're right, SamT :bow:
In which case I have no idea what Willie's symphonic devices were named!
Von Trippenhof
New member
If you fancy experimenting with this yourself, but can't get hold of the necessary Blue Peter materials, you may need to look no further than your washing machine!
On my model, the fabric conditioner bit of the washing-sauce loading tray works in the same way (I guess to dilute the chemicals before they get dumped into the drum in a one-er). If you pull the tray out, you can play with it in the sink - it's small volume makes it easy to see the effects of tuning the inflow rate.
A word of warning though: If you get really excited about this, think before you show your friends. Excessive whooping may confirm their fears regarding your mental state...
On my model, the fabric conditioner bit of the washing-sauce loading tray works in the same way (I guess to dilute the chemicals before they get dumped into the drum in a one-er). If you pull the tray out, you can play with it in the sink - it's small volume makes it easy to see the effects of tuning the inflow rate.
A word of warning though: If you get really excited about this, think before you show your friends. Excessive whooping may confirm their fears regarding your mental state...
Quote from: SamT on May 29, 2011, 10:30:12 am
Wasn't a flopjack just a hinged bucket that filled till the top half was heavier than the bottom half and it tipped over emptying the bucket, which then righted itself and continued filling again.
Myself and J Rat installed a flopjack in Magpie Sough in 1974 it was made out of a long steel axe that came from the Pegasus Hostel. The axe was hinged on a frame with a bevelled bucket to collect water at the shaft end, when it filled the axe came up until the bucket emptied and the axe head came down. We installed it in the first level up from the sough in the main shaft to ring every 3/4 minuets on an old air receiver. The shaft bottom collapsed some years ago but I often wonder if it still tolls to this day. As an aside there used to be an old full calor gas bottle wedged in the main shaft with its valve severely bent and we used carbide back in the day.
T pot
Wasn't a flopjack just a hinged bucket that filled till the top half was heavier than the bottom half and it tipped over emptying the bucket, which then righted itself and continued filling again.
Myself and J Rat installed a flopjack in Magpie Sough in 1974 it was made out of a long steel axe that came from the Pegasus Hostel. The axe was hinged on a frame with a bevelled bucket to collect water at the shaft end, when it filled the axe came up until the bucket emptied and the axe head came down. We installed it in the first level up from the sough in the main shaft to ring every 3/4 minuets on an old air receiver. The shaft bottom collapsed some years ago but I often wonder if it still tolls to this day. As an aside there used to be an old full calor gas bottle wedged in the main shaft with its valve severely bent and we used carbide back in the day.
T pot
Thanks everyone, what a great response. Sorry I'm so behind, I had a few days off work and don't have internet access at home.
I'm interested in the mechanism of the well ebbing and flowing, which seems to have been answered really nicely by the explanations and diagrams given, so thanks very much for those!
I'd also like to know where the water comes from. I haven't been in the caves around the scar, but am planning to some time in the near future. If anyone has been in, or knows where the water comes from, that too would be really interesting.
Hannah
I'm interested in the mechanism of the well ebbing and flowing, which seems to have been answered really nicely by the explanations and diagrams given, so thanks very much for those!
I'd also like to know where the water comes from. I haven't been in the caves around the scar, but am planning to some time in the near future. If anyone has been in, or knows where the water comes from, that too would be really interesting.
Hannah
