Equipment recommendations

[Peter Burgess]

Rather than discuss the theory, does anyone know whether the scenarios we are trying to avoid have ever happened? How often has a caver ended up with serious injuries or even died, because they were left hanging on the end of a rope held up only by a belt? If the answer is never, do we need to be so concerned?

And as this is a 'new to caving' area, what are the 'new cavers' going to make of all this?

 

[ttxela]

And as this is a 'new to caving' area, what are the 'new cavers' going to make of all this?

Well I'm pretty new and must admit to being slightly confused, I've tried SRT and climbing an electron ladder in a garage (thanks Wayne!) but not underground yet, although I have been on a few horizontal trips. So;

Do I need a belt at all? (Other than somewhere to hang my battery)

Should I buy a harness and take it on trips where I am only going to be doing easy climbs/ladders?

I have been lifelined on a belt before when climbing down fairly long "fixed" ladders, was this bad practice?

 

[Peter Burgess]

When I cave without a belt, I feel uncomfortable. It's as though I need something around my middle to keep all my 'bits' in place, even though there are no 'bits' there. When you are wearing a loose-fitting oversuit, it's nice to 'divide' it into a top and a bottom. I expect this just sounds a bit weird, but does anyone else feel awkward without a belt? I suppose a piece of baler-twine would do the job.

 

[Hughie]

Peter - baler twine was SO last season!

 

[ttxela]

When I cave without a belt, I feel uncomfortable. It's as though I need something around my middle to keep all my 'bits' in place, even though there are no 'bits' there.

Oh no! Was that the result of a particularly nasty caving accident? 

 

[Peter Burgess]

Most people don't have 'bits' hanging out of their waistline do they? Actually I've realised what it is. I sometimes stuff things into my oversuit, and without a belt they would fall down into my wellies.

 

[cap n chris]

I think that the debate about belts and lifelining is pretty much decided by the fact that belts are no longer rated PPE; therefore in a lining situation the only recourse (other than in an emergency when any improvised kit is acceptable) is a harness. Therefore the advice to newcomers should be "use a harness if you're using a rope".

There will be situations where a harness isn't necessary (i.e. up a slope) so we don't need to debate the variety of situations which exist as exceptions.

So, for the benefit of newcomers: if you're gonna be clipped on to a rope, you'll ideally want to be wearing a harness. Experienced cavers/old lags/dinosaurs may well negotiate the vertical obstacle without a harness* - or safety line! - but ignore them; your life is important.... theirs isn't.


* Some people choose to drive without a seat belt, breaking the speed limit, drink/drug driving, while tired, in a crappy car which isn't insured/MOTd/taxed, with shit tyres and in icy/wet/windy/dark conditions and yet they still haven't been killed/injured yet.... but does this make them wise counsels for best practice when it comes to teaching you or your children how to drive? - you decide.

 

[gus horsley]

When I cave without a belt, I feel uncomfortable. It's as though I need something around my middle to keep all my 'bits' in place, even though there are no 'bits' there. When you are wearing a loose-fitting oversuit, it's nice to 'divide' it into a top and a bottom. I expect this just sounds a bit weird, but does anyone else feel awkward without a belt? I suppose a piece of baler-twine would do the job.

I always wear (wore) a belt, but only to keep my Oldham lamp(s) in place.  I wouldn't want to attach a rope to a bit of baler twine, so I'd advocate a harness instead.  It looks much cooler too, for the fashion conscious caver, which I've never been.

 

[Hatstand]

Rather than discuss the theory, does anyone know whether the scenarios we are trying to avoid have ever happened? How often has a caver ended up with serious injuries or even died, because they were left hanging on the end of a rope held up only by a belt? [snip]

My best mate at Uni's wife (not sure if she was then!) came to grief on a badly rigged ladder/lifeline arrangement and ended up hanging for some considerable time halfway up the pitch in the spray from the waterfall and came very close to getting hypothermia. (while the rest of the party faffed, nearly as badly as they rigged)

HER comment???? (I paraphrase obviously )

THANK FCUK I WAS WEARING MY BORROWED CLIMBERS HARNESS ...and not just a belt!!!

 

[wormster]

For the really fashon concious of you out there HERE'S where you'll find this years colour:

http://tagsafety.com/acatalog/tactical_special_ops.php

 

[Stu]

Question raised earlier re: suspension via belt? Don't know about belts but there have been numerous occasions of death in harness. The French (or maybe US - can never remember) Airforce did some tests and 100% of candidates tested started with the onset of suspension syndrome. Don't know if it's enough to suggest it's never happened so no need to worry/bother. Isn't there some pseudo-law that goes "if it can go wrong it will!" - mitigate for that and the outcomes should be good, no?

Just a quick one re: belts and belaying (if you've not been put off  :) don't belay off the belt, belay direct to the anchor, use the belt attached back to the anchor for positioning. No need to ever bear someones weight via a belt. This also mitigates the need to waist belay; though it's perhaps not as obselete as may be thought. I can think of one Peak cave where it's a useful option at a restricted space pitch (well, a baby pitch) head.

 

[cap n chris]

Harness Induced Pathology or Suspension Trauma is irrelevant for harnesses being worn while lined; its only relevance is with SRT.

Taking a shock load through a belt while lined (as a result of ladder failure/slip) is the main reason for not wearing a belt (and the fact that belts are not PPE rated); the best practice is to wear a harness when being lined on a vertical obstacle.

 

[wormster]

Personally I'd rather wear a harness than a belt,

I've had experience of both (in climbing and caving situations)

I feel happier knowing that if I'm going to take a fall the shock is going to be spread around my hips/pelvis (huh huh) rather than having the shock going into my vital organs and then getting hung up on a bloody ladder in the pissing water on swillys 20' pitch (I'm not going to rant about ladders its been done to death elsewhere)

 

[Dep]

...
Do I need a belt at all? (Other than somewhere to hang my battery)
...
Should I buy a harness and take it on trips where I am only going to be doing easy climbs/ladders?
...

In your personal case no. A belay belt is just right for you, battery mount and on those odd occasions when you want to tie onto something it will do very well.
A harness would be overkill, f you really want something more secure use a belt and a long sling and rig it like a nappy.

At no point should it ever be possible to fall onto a belt so shock loading or injuries caused by this should not be relevant. If you fall when lifelining the person will give you a second or two to sort your self out - and if you haven't/can't you should be lowered off quickly.

This is why lifelining upwards requires a device/method that allows you to switch to lower quickly and easily.

 

[Dep]

Whilst I accept the technical arguments that belts are no longer PPE etc and of course cannot question that a harness is better all round I was taught to lifeline for basic safety twenty odd years ago. And the method then was to tie a bowline round your chest.

The common-sense arguments says that we must all wear harnesses for every lifelined pitch.
There is a site near me with a shaff ot less than 20 feet.
We use an electron, those who want it have a lifeline.
I cannot in all good faith tell newcomers that they need to bring a harness - that's just plain ridiculous.

I would say that the geneal rule of thumb which I would apply is how quickly someone can be lowered in a belt.

Hanging in a belt for a few minutes may be uncomfortable but it won't kill you - and as the alternative is falling to the bottom it does its basic job of saving your life.

Also: The sorts of trips where a lifeline would be rigged for ascent with a ladder are  the sots f places it is quicker to ab in. A 4ft sling round my legs clipped into my belt and I am sorted.
There is  no way I would want to walk around my SRT harness on, wear and tear, discomfort, time putting it on/off unless I am actually SRT'ing.

Those who do this professionally are bound by different rules, but for the recreational users out there we cannot tell people that harnesses are the way to go.

With caving newcomers thin on the ground it seems silly to add another £40-50 cost to their entry to the sport.

 

[whitelackington]

If we are now supposed to equip virtual beginners with a harness to do Swildons 20, as, of course we all know beginners are not allowed in Swidons, cos it could be dangerous.

Do they then take their harnesses off, after descending the 20.
Leave them on the floor, in a bag, carry them in their own personel tackle bag
or continue to wear them throughout the trip.

Also who is buying this stuff/ caring for it / replacing it when the date comes up, what every three or four years.

This is getting expensive to take people on their second caving trip, especially as most will not want to carry on caving.

 

[Peter Burgess]

I would like this thread to provide some sensible advice to new cavers, rather than become a discussion on the merits or otherwise of using a harness on minor pitches.

Here is a different tack.

Is it better to invest time and effort learning how to rig properly, and to climb/belay safely? Is the risk of accident reduced far more by doing this, than by what rig you wear?

Technology is no ultimate substitute for good practice.

Like in driving: just because your car has ABS, it doesn't really make bad driving safer - it possibly encourages bad drivers to tailgate and speed in icy/wet conditions.

 

[cap n chris]

.... Oh, Peter! - sounds to me like you're on the verge of the "caving certificate debate" and we all know what happens when people wander down that jagged route.

Of course it's good when people are proficient in anything rather than engaged in Do Yourself In techniques.

Dep: the person organising the trip is supposed to ensure that people have the correct equipment, surely? It's up to the leader to tell people what to bring and if they don't personally own kit you can either hire or borrow it on their behalf.

Whitelackington: you mention beginners on ladders. Where should people be getting their first ladder experience? (on the surface is the correct answer). Of all people, which are most likely to make a mess of climbing a ladder? (beginners is the correct answer). Therefore is it such an unreasonable thing to suggest that the people most in need of a harness should be the ones who ought to wear one?

If you wish to take the harnesses off and stow them in a bag downstream away from the pitch/waterfall (where it is cold and unwise to stand around waiting BTW) then that's fine but I've often seen cavers (and done this myself) wearing a harness to Sump 1 and return again.

The people who own the kit are the people who look after/maintain it.

Caving is expensive already but then as we all know, cavers are so tight they can manufacture their own diamonds by sticking lumps of coal up their backsides. When you buy a car do you complain about the additional cost of the seatbelt?

Ladders snap, Dep, and an awkward fall of 2m/6ft onto rock(s) can be fatal.

Oh, and remember:

"The single biggest cause of death/injury in UK caving is (was) falling unlined while climbing ladder pitches of 10m or less": this statement may have since been superceded as a result of better training, better equipment and people undertaking more suitable trips within their capacity.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Oh, Peter! - sounds to me like you're on the verge of the "caving certificate debate"

Utter tosh. I am merely suggesting that cavers should learn to cave safely by not just having the right gear, but by learning how to climb efficiently, and how to belay a climber safely. Also to learn how to tie knots correctly. Certification is irrelevant. Having a driving licence doesn't automatically make you a safe driver.

 

[cap n chris]

You're right of course.

However, how are you going to define "correctly"? - that's probably the contentious bit.



On re-reading the bit by Dep who stated "we cannot tell people that harnesses are the way to go" this leaves the answered question: if belts aren't PPE then what can you tell people/newcomers? My personal feeling is that if someone who knows nothing about caving asks about it, you should give them good advice rather than saying "You'll be all right, mate" (an over-used, untrue, mantra). The advice is this: get your ladder practice on the surface and always use a lifeline, even on short pitches, correctly belayed and attached to the climber.

And so, to what extent do you tell people anything?: e.g. if you see a bunch of people kitting up on Priddy Green all wearing jeans and t-shirts with trainers/sandals and a couple of builders site helmets between 5 plus hand held torches and a caver's ladder (with young children comprising over half the group) do you have a word with them or just ignore it? (this is probably a new thread BTW).