• The Derbyshire Caver, No. 158

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Fixe Chest Ascender

royfellows

Well-known member
I can tell you that the CE marking on electrical goods is a self certification if this is any use.
In effect its become pretty meaningless as most Chinese produced goods bear this marking but with the spacing between the characters slightly different to the correct CE marking.
The joke is that it stands for "China Export"
 

andrewmcleod

Well-known member
royfellows said:
I can tell you that the CE marking on electrical goods is a self certification if this is any use.
In effect its become pretty meaningless as most Chinese produced goods bear this marking but with the spacing between the characters slightly different to the correct CE marking.
The joke is that it stands for "China Export"

I think that's more because they are crap at typography rather than deliberate obfuscation (the proper CE logo also takes up loads of space). I'm sure most Chinese manufacturers would be more than happy to put whatever certification stamps you want on. This isn't even unreasonable as it is not the Chinese manufacturer's job to ensure stuff meets some standard in another country - it is the responsibility of the importer.

If I contact a Chinese manufacturer and ask them to knock me up a cheap ascender and stick a CE stamp on it, they haven't done anything wrong (well possibly trademark violation of the CE mark). I have, though, if I try and import it knowing that I have failed to ensure the equipment meets the standard it claims to. The issue, of course, is that many Chinese manufacturer are rather less than honest. This is not really OK, even in China, but are you really going to try and sue them?
 

ianball11

Active member
Was it some clever fellow in China or just a rumour that someone named an industrial estate USA, so they could stamp it 'made in USA'?

The Anthron Ac-30 also has EN567:2003 and EN12841:2006 Type B along with CE 0123, certified by the German company TUV SUD Product Service in Garching, Germany.  It says in the paperwork:

According to EN567 rope clamp AC-30 is tested to work on kernmantle ropes of 8mm to 13mm that comply with the norms EN 1891, EN 892 or UIAA standards.  According to EN12841 Type B, EN 1891 Type A compliant ropes of 9mm to 13mm must be used.  The devices were tested with the following ropes: Beal Antipodes 8mm, Tendon 9.0 A Static and Tendon 13.0 Static.
It also has a table showing the results of the tests, though without any indication if it is an average etc.
Static requirement according to the norm EN 567 is 4kN.

dia.
dynamic low stretch
8mm
5kN​
6kN​
10mm
6.3kN​
6.5kN​
11mm
6.6kN​
7.5kN​
12mm
-​
7.8kN​
13mm
-​
8kN​
           

I am confident the Anthron is a decent piece of kit, but at 35mm deep, 5mm deeper than a Croll Version I, I'm not sure it will help me much in tight spots! 

I enjoyed making that table.
 

ianball11

Active member
Also interesting is the product specific instructions for the Singing Rock Cam Clean and the Climbing Technology Evo



29151381311_96a884dac8_z.jpg
 

Simon Wilson

New member
ianball11 said:
Also interesting is the product specific instructions for the Singing Rock Cam Clean and the Climbing Technology Evo

That makes me more confident about both products. There is obviously some cooperation between the two companies which explains why the two jammers have been made with the same tooling. The Singing Rock Cam Clean instructions say it's made in Italy. Singing Rock are a Czech company, Climbing Technology are Italian.

I can't find out anything about the origin of the ABC chest ascender though. It is also made with the same tooling.
 

Madness

New member
Simon Wilson said:
Madness said:
Simon Wilson said:
Do you still have the leaflet?

Yes, it's sat next to the ascender in my utility room.

So what does the leaflet say about the certification? Can you scan the relevant bit and post it?

The leaflet states

'This Person Protective Equipment (P.P.E.) complies with the esential health and safety requirements set in the Directive 89/686/ECC based on the implementation of the corresponding sections of the European Standard EN567'

it also gives the following information:-

Body controlling the manufacture if this PPE:-    No. 0082
                                                                          APAVE SUDEUROPE SAS
                                                                          BP 193-13322
                                                                          MARSEILLE CEDEX 16
                                                                          FRANCE

Notified body intervening for the CE standard examination:-    No. 0082 (6791,679D)
                                                                                                  No. 2008 (827)
                                                                                                  DOLOMITICERT SCARL
                                                                                                  Z. INDUSTRIALE VILLANOVA
                                                                                                  LONGARONE (BL) ITALY

 

Simon Wilson

New member
Virtually everybody seeing CE **** on a piece of hardware would assume it was in compliance with a CE standard. I have to admit that even I was taken in by it for a time and I really should know better. The reason I was taken in is that I would expect companies like Alpkit, Fixe and Techrock to be concerned about their reputation.

I would like to understand what they are doing with the way they have worded the leaflet. Perhaps Nick Williams might be able to shed some light on it.
 

Madness

New member
I think Alpkit take pride in their customer service, and in my experience they have always been excellent in this respect. This is why I emailed them to give them a 'heads up' that Fixe might be misrepresenting where there Ascenders are actually being manufactured. I believe that Alpkit are concerned about their reputation and I be surprised if they are not following this up with Fixe.

It seems likely that Fixe are having the Ascenders made in China and have had them tested and certified in Europe. Whether all the other Ascenders that are identical, and available on Ebay, are manufactured to the same standard is anyones guess. Working in Engineering/Manufacturing I believe it would make little sense for a company to manufacture the same part to differing specifications.

However, It might just be that the tooling for the Fixe Ascender was sourced from China and the tooling company made more than one set of tooling, selling the second set to a Chinese company. It's a possibility I suppose.
 

Simon Wilson

New member
Madness said:
It seems likely that Fixe are having the Ascenders made in China and have had them tested and certified in Europe.

Does the ascender have CE EN 567 permanently marked on it? If not then it is not marked correctly as required by the legislation. Have you been told that it is 'certified' and does the leaflet say it is? If not, I suggest you ask Alpkit if they have seen a copy of the Declaration of Conformity.


PS
I just found out that Nick Williams is on holiday.
 

bograt

Active member
Madness said:
However, It might just be that the tooling for the Fixe Ascender was sourced from China and the tooling company made more than one set of tooling, selling the second set to a Chinese company. It's a possibility I suppose.

Of course, the tooling is only part of it, the quality of metal used to make the product is more important, my experience of some Chinese metals make me a cynic----.
 

Antwan

Member
bograt said:
Madness said:
However, It might just be that the tooling for the Fixe Ascender was sourced from China and the tooling company made more than one set of tooling, selling the second set to a Chinese company. It's a possibility I suppose.

Of course, the tooling is only part of it, the quality of metal used to make the product is more important, my experience of some Chinese metals make me a cynic----.
wait until your traveling on HS2!
 

nickwilliams

Well-known member
The four figure number after the CE logo is the unique identification number for the Notified Body who audits the quality control procedures (?QMS?) for the production of the device. These ascenders are ?category 3 PPE? which means that the manufacturer must have an audited quality control procedure and must also have the product type tested by a Notified Body to show it meets the essential performance requirements of the Directive (generally this means showing it meets the applicable standards).

The NoBo which does the QMS audit may be different to the one which does the type test (although they are usually the same for commercial reasons). The number after the CE mark only refers to the NoBo which did the QMS audit - if there is no mandatory requirement for a QMS audit by a NoBo then there should be no number after the CE logo even if a NoBo is required to type test the product.

The number tells you nothing about what the rating of the device is, who made it, where it was made or what standards were applied in the design and manufacture.

NoBo?s must be based in Europe, or another country where there is a specific Mutual Recognition Agreement with the EU. However, it is perfectly possible for a NoBo to have an office in an EEA country but to also have offices in other countries (e.g. China) where most of its business activity actually takes place. All the big ones have offices in China, and many of them have multiple offices in different parts of China.

NoBo 0082 is the French company APAVE who have offices in many countries. The 0082 number will be applied to any NoBo activity they undertake in any of those offices and for any type of product.

For the purposes of CE marking, the ?manufacturer? of the product is the company whose name is on the product. Frequently this will be the name of the company which imports the product into Europe, but it does not have to be - only medical devices are required to have an EEA based ?manufacturer?, other products which are not medical devices can be sold direct from outside the EU.

Different importers may source products from the same factory and put their own brand on them. They may get their own certification done by different NoBos to the ones used by other importers, or they may rely on the certifications provided by the factory. It?s fairly easy to check if any certification is valid if you have a copy of it so importers who know what they are doing (a minority, in my experience) can easily ensure they are getting properly certified products.

It?s not uncommon for different Chinese manufacturers to produce products which are visibly identical, so just because a product appears to be the same as an other differently branded one does not necessarily means that it?s been made in the same place, although equally, that is entirely possible.

There is no requirement for country of origin marking in Europe, the only requirement is that if country of origin is given then it must not be ?misleading?. It should identify the  country in which the last significant manufacturing operation took place, but as an example, if you buy two parts from different factories in China, import them separately into the UK and assemble them into a single product then that counts as a ?significant manufacturing operation? even if all you are doing is packing them together into a bundle.

Having said all this about importing from China, I've read nothing so far which confirms that these ascenders are not made in Europe.

It's also worth saying that many of the major outdoor gear brands are owned by a fairly small number of large companies who promote different brands in different places for different reasons. For example, Rab and Lowe Alpine are both owned by the same company, although their manufacturing mostly takes place in different factories. I have no idea whether or not any of the brands mentioned above are owned by the same company but it's entirely possible.

Finally, (for now at least) we are not out of the EU yet, and even when we leave, it?s very unlikely that the CE mark will disappear as a requirement in the UK since it?s integral to the EU single market in goods which the Brexiteers want to preserve our access to.
 

Mark Wright

Active member
Simon Wilson said:
Virtually everybody seeing CE **** on a piece of hardware would assume it was in compliance with a CE standard. I have to admit that even I was taken in by it for a time and I really should know better.

Simon makes an important point here. Why would you question it.

The issue Petzl had a few years ago with some of their products being copied was spotted at a Chinese trade show by a very experienced former Petzl agent formerly based in Switzerland. The Chinese manufacturing company had made an excellent job of making the Croll chest ascender look real, CE markings, unique numbers and everything else. The only thing that gave it away as being dodgy in any way was the extremely low price. Testing later showed them to fail catastrophically at well below the requirements of the EN standards.

They were also making copies of Petzl Spatha knives. The give away on that product was what it said on the box, PETZEL.

I've been round the Petzl factory a few times, even in some of its secret rooms, and have seen the efforts they put into the quality of their products and I genuinely believe the price of those products is in line with those efforts. You generally get what you pay for, and when it comes to safety critical products, i'd rather have the best.

OK Petzl don't always get it right, e.g. new Croll, Torse chest harness, but they usually do, thats probably why most of the other companies copy Petzl products to save them having to spend anything on R&D. 

But, when I see a similar safety critical product for sale between 50% & 75% cheeper than e.g. Petzl, alarms bells start ringing.

There were complaints about how difficult it is to inspect the stainless wear plate on the Petzl Croll, well thats nothing compared with how difficult it is to inspect as being fit and safe for use a chest ascender that you bought off eBay for ?11.99.

Mark

 

Simon Wilson

New member
I still want to know if the Fixe chest ascender is certified. As I read it, the legislation requires the ascender to be marked with both the unified standard (in this case EN567) and the Notified Body number.

Madness, is it marked with EN567? Actually on the device, not just in the leaflet. If not, why not?

For it to be certified there must be a Declaration of Conformity, which is a legal document. They don't have to show it to the user but they have to show it on demand to an enforcement body such as Trading Standards or HSE.
 
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