Ladder & lifeine

[wallop]

Hi All

How would you approach a pitch if it was already rigged, would you de rig
the ladder & lifeline that is there, or would you leave your kit by the pitch and hope that the next caver would rig your kit up, and safetly.
Would i be right to de rig the kit which is there and put mine in place?

 

[danthecavingman]

I think I would use my own lifeline and leave it hanging down the pitch. I would use the ladder in place and leave my ladder coiled and clipped to the belay over the top of the other partys ladder. If the situation was reversed, I wouldn't mind someone else using my ladder but I wouldn't expect anyone to trust my ropes. And I would never detackle a pitch and not put another partys ladder down for them. This has happened in the past! Nor would I steal the other partys ladder (as has also happened in the past ).

Dan

 

[wallop]

Thanks for that.

 

[cap n chris]

Pretty sound advice with one reservation; when finding other kit rigged off one bolt I would routinely derig it and replace it rigged "correctly" (IMHO) i.e. not off one bolt. Also I would not trust any ladder which is obviously tatty since having one of my own (2 year old) snap without warning.

 

[danthecavingman]

To right Cap'n! I would always back up my lifeline to another bolt. And I always use a lifeline! Having had a ladder snap on me down P7 when I was climbing without one I feel very lucky to be in one piece. Just because you're down a familar dig and "It's quicker without a lifeline" doesn't mean you won't get hurt if you fall. I was lucky and managed to stick like s**t to a blanket when I grabbed the walls / scaffolding of the shaft concerned. I freeclimbed the rest of the pitch somewhat shaken. Not an experience I would like to repeat. And for anyone thinking it's alright without a line, it won't happen to me, you get absolutely no warning when a ladder goes. And it won't fail while you're at the bottom either, about halfway up the pitch was when I got caught out.

Dan.

 

[cap n chris]

.... and ladders don't fail gradually, giving you a chance to react - they simply go "ping!" and instant freefall results.

 

[SamT]

I think the standard practice and unwritten rule that I've always been taught is to use whats there - leaving your own clipped near the top and that if exiting and you find someone elses gear there - they've obv. used yours and you should rig theirs and ensure its dropped down for them.

Clearly, you have to trust their rigging.

If there is an alternative location to rig, then by all means - use that.

but most places I know only have one P bolted point. eg Garlands - 2nd pitch oxlow, 1st pitch P8 - 40' pitch. (excluding 'natural' rigging).

There is more likely to be trouble/an accident if folks are trying to negociate 2 ladders and lifelines hung close together. (remember you might be a hotshot - but the other teams may be on a novice trip).

All cavers should be aware of the (use existing ladder/rig others if you exit) code.

 

[Dave H]

Just because you're down a familar dig and "It's quicker without a lifeline" doesn't mean you won't get hurt if you fall.

I know someone who took a tumble down Garlands Pot in Giants when the natural eyehole he had his wire belay round broke. I've known him for over 20 years and it's the only occassion that I can remember him not using a lifeline. Luckily there was another ladder down the pitch for him to use to get out. Many of us don't treat little, well known pitches like Garlands with the same respect as larger, more obscure ones. Remember that if you are unlucky you could break an ankle from a 6" fall.

Getting back to the subject:
I've always been told, and always taught others, to leave your ladder rolled at the top of the pitch and to rig your lifeline. Thereby using their ladder to climb on, but using your known rope to lifeline with. If it is unfeasable to place two lifelines down the pitch then remove the existing one before replacing it with yours (only one person from the other group then has to use your rope to climb the pitch, and they can then replace your rope with theirs for the other members of their group) And when removing your gear from a pitch head, replace it with gear left by other groups.
It all gets much more complicated if there is an SRT rope being used for self-life lining on a ladder pitch (in which case it must be left for the other group to use) or a group has used SRT spaghetti over all the available belay points (the last time I saw this was on a pitch less than 20'; we left the cave and waited for the DCRO call-out. There was no safe way we could rig the pitch without entanglement in their spaghetti! :x The group were obviously lucky that day as there was no call out.)

 

[The Masked Hobit]

"Elves seldom give unguarded advice, for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill. But what would you? You have not told me all concerning yourself; and how then shall I choose better than you?"
[Gildor says this in response to Frodo saying ""Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes."]
-J. R. R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings

 

[The Badger]

Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is not safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing.
-Helen Keller, Let Us Have Faith, 1940



...mind you as one ages its more calculated risk than fools rush in, but the sentiment is sound.