Simon Wilson
New member
That's right. It's only one of the two loops that slips if you hang on it. It's in a similar way that only one of the loops slips if an anchor fails when it's the opposite loop that slips.andrewmcleod said:
mid rope Y hang - prefered knot ?
- Thread starter todcaver
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andrewmcleod
Well-known member
JoshW said:
Putting a small Alpine Butterfly in the rope at the top of the pitch rope just below the BOTB would (probably) stop the issue and provide a convenient safe non-extending clip-in point
Or you could just use ABs in the first place...
JoshW
Well-known member
andrewmcleod said:JoshW said:
Putting a small Alpine Butterfly in the rope at the top of the pitch rope just below the BOTB would (probably) stop the issue and provide a convenient safe non-extending clip-in point
Or you could just use ABs in the first place...
alpine butterfly is a much better shout.
Isn't the idea of rigging two ears that it's supposedly 'rigging for rescue' as someone whose down near on naff-all rigging, i've just heard the phrase chucked about as the reason we use BotBs at our club. I've never really had it explained why that would be any better than an alpine butterfly and figure 8?
badger
Active member
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5-YbRxceiY
I tried to replicate this myself and whilst the knot slipped it tightened up so much that it never ever went all the way through, then the knot was dressed correctly.
tying y hang with butterflies or fig eights is ok but knots are very hard to undo once loaded,
the current professional training as I understand it suggest rigging should be rigged ready in case of rescue,
recreational cavers tend to rig for use only.
fusion knots I have been informed that these have been tested and suffer the same slippage as a bowline on a bight
I have been informed that if you tie a bowling on a bight from making 2 overhand knots then this does not slip.
ultimately as long as knots are tied correctly and dressed correctly then there should not be any issues,
simon might be the best person to find out how often a eco bolt fails, my thoughts very rarely, if there is going to be an issue, which if everything has been correctly, would be the knot breaking as this weakens the rope by a big margin, Bob mayhew could give you the figures.
going back to a bowling on a bight I have generally use these and do not from memory ever had a problem getting on/off rope descending or ascending
I tried to replicate this myself and whilst the knot slipped it tightened up so much that it never ever went all the way through, then the knot was dressed correctly.
tying y hang with butterflies or fig eights is ok but knots are very hard to undo once loaded,
the current professional training as I understand it suggest rigging should be rigged ready in case of rescue,
recreational cavers tend to rig for use only.
fusion knots I have been informed that these have been tested and suffer the same slippage as a bowline on a bight
I have been informed that if you tie a bowling on a bight from making 2 overhand knots then this does not slip.
ultimately as long as knots are tied correctly and dressed correctly then there should not be any issues,
simon might be the best person to find out how often a eco bolt fails, my thoughts very rarely, if there is going to be an issue, which if everything has been correctly, would be the knot breaking as this weakens the rope by a big margin, Bob mayhew could give you the figures.
going back to a bowling on a bight I have generally use these and do not from memory ever had a problem getting on/off rope descending or ascending
Simon Wilson
New member
I was using the term 'anchor' generically to refer to all anchors including rusty Spits, stal and the tiny rock projection I recently saw being used as a natural on one side of a Y.
badger
Active member
IRATA. I have no idea what they teach maybe Badlad could answer this one
maybe a CIC could answer the question about traverse to a Y hang what they would teach and why.
reasons why I personally would not use a fig 8 bunny ears is it takes longer to adjust than a bowline on a bight, and harder to untie, I also believe it would use more rope, not that is something I would be concerned about, but other cavers seem to mention it.
maybe a CIC could answer the question about traverse to a Y hang what they would teach and why.
reasons why I personally would not use a fig 8 bunny ears is it takes longer to adjust than a bowline on a bight, and harder to untie, I also believe it would use more rope, not that is something I would be concerned about, but other cavers seem to mention it.
Mark Wright
Active member
Hammy said:
IRATA don't specify any particular knot but in the 30 years I've been involved in the industry, 12 years on the IRATA Training Committee and 6 years chairing it, I don't think I've ever seen a Double Bowline on the Bight been used for making a 'Y' hang.
The very fact that you have to tie an additional stopper knot on a single Bowline suggests the knot isn't safe on its own so why not just tie a safe knot. I know some people always tie a stopper knot behind a Fig 8 on the bight but this is totally unnecessary if the knot is tied correctly in the first place.
Its clear from the discussions on this thread that there is a lot of confusion over how best to tie Bowlines and how best to clip into them when passing obstructions and there are plenty of videos to demonstrate what can go wrong if you clip into them incorrectly.
Double Fig. 8 on the Bight when anchors are close together and Fig. 8 or 9 on the Bight and an Alpine Butterfly when they are wider apart is the simplest and safest option and why an IRATA Assessment only requires these knots to be demonstrated.
Mark
Pete K
Well-known member
Hello, CIC and the chap jumping off the platform here.
1st off. I would worry what IRATA etc chaps get up to and what they don't like. Virtually everything we do on rope underground would not fly in a rope access environment, not that it is not safe, they just operate to a totally different set of parameters to sport cavers. We only use 1 rope!
The point made earlier about it being 'impossible' to clip both loops on a BotB knot is perhaps reflective of the karabiners selected by the caver for the cowstails. I've been caving on them and teaching them for about 10 years now and a BotB with arms of 90 degrees or less is clip-able through both loops every time with the correct karabiners. I've been using Petzl Attache krabs on mine and my client's cowstails and they do the job. I suggest a failure to clip into both loops is simply a failing in the selection of karabiner. Outside of work on personal trips I still use them and have no complaints from caving buddies about inability to clip in. Mind you I do cave most with other professionals who tend to use larger krabs.
Finally, to answer the OP. Nothing wrong with a Bowline on the Bight, Figure 8 'Bunny Ears' or a Fig 8 / Butterfly type set up. All will be required at some point depending on the nature of the anchors available and their position. The best solution is to be comfortable with all the rigging styles and accept that one will not do every situation.
1st off. I would worry what IRATA etc chaps get up to and what they don't like. Virtually everything we do on rope underground would not fly in a rope access environment, not that it is not safe, they just operate to a totally different set of parameters to sport cavers. We only use 1 rope!
The point made earlier about it being 'impossible' to clip both loops on a BotB knot is perhaps reflective of the karabiners selected by the caver for the cowstails. I've been caving on them and teaching them for about 10 years now and a BotB with arms of 90 degrees or less is clip-able through both loops every time with the correct karabiners. I've been using Petzl Attache krabs on mine and my client's cowstails and they do the job. I suggest a failure to clip into both loops is simply a failing in the selection of karabiner. Outside of work on personal trips I still use them and have no complaints from caving buddies about inability to clip in. Mind you I do cave most with other professionals who tend to use larger krabs.
Finally, to answer the OP. Nothing wrong with a Bowline on the Bight, Figure 8 'Bunny Ears' or a Fig 8 / Butterfly type set up. All will be required at some point depending on the nature of the anchors available and their position. The best solution is to be comfortable with all the rigging styles and accept that one will not do every situation.
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
Mark Wright said:
Presumably the only downside I can think of for an AB hang is if the loop bolt fails then there could be a substantial drop for someone clipped into it - if there is say a 1m long loop then you could take a 1m (+ swing) fall if you are clipped into only the loop (as your cowstail slides along it). An knot in the loop near the Y-hang would stop this. I would also not be at all surprised if a snapgate managed to unclip itself from the loop in such a fall.
(as a dubious side note I would also argue, albeit much less qualified than CIC and not in caving, that bowlines are never actually required, albeit can make life easier tying things round big trees/boulders where rethreading a Fig 8 etc is a PITA. It is also one of my aims in life to learn to tie an AB by rethreading... I also had an MIA who didn't like Fig 8 bunny ears in climbing because if you cut one loop, you lose the whole knot - but this shouldn't be an issue in caving)
I tend to use Fig 8 BE for Y hangs that are not too far apart: if miles apart I use AB.
I use BoB for single point re-belays set very slightly asymmetrically with short loops; this loads the back bar of the krab better. It's a faster variation on one of 'the good books' [can't recall which] that shortens one of the loops to nothing, thus only clipping one loop into the krab.
For Y hangs I often use a 'comfort krab' pre-clipped through both loops, especially if the pitch head is awkward. I don't carry a lot of the big HMS style krabs that are needed for this task, but if I have a spare about me I'll often use a Polish Knot for a single point re-belay, but only when using 9mm rope as it doesn't work so well with thicker, or more significantly, stiffer, rope.
Both the Polish and BoB are of course easy to undo.
I use BoB for single point re-belays set very slightly asymmetrically with short loops; this loads the back bar of the krab better. It's a faster variation on one of 'the good books' [can't recall which] that shortens one of the loops to nothing, thus only clipping one loop into the krab.
For Y hangs I often use a 'comfort krab' pre-clipped through both loops, especially if the pitch head is awkward. I don't carry a lot of the big HMS style krabs that are needed for this task, but if I have a spare about me I'll often use a Polish Knot for a single point re-belay, but only when using 9mm rope as it doesn't work so well with thicker, or more significantly, stiffer, rope.
Both the Polish and BoB are of course easy to undo.
Pete K
Well-known member
I've heard the Pile Hitch called a Polish Knot, can you confirm if this is what you mean?
http://www.peakinstruction.com/blog/knots/pile-hitch-how-to-tie/
On the point of long butterfly loops leaving you exposed to a long drop if the anchor rips out - Tie the loop 10-15cm longer than required and tie an overhand knot in the loop near the body of the butterfly. This creates and isolated clipping point between the overhand and butterfly body, a knot on a knot as it were. Make sense?
http://www.peakinstruction.com/blog/knots/pile-hitch-how-to-tie/
On the point of long butterfly loops leaving you exposed to a long drop if the anchor rips out - Tie the loop 10-15cm longer than required and tie an overhand knot in the loop near the body of the butterfly. This creates and isolated clipping point between the overhand and butterfly body, a knot on a knot as it were. Make sense?
Mark Wright
Active member
A Polish knot is a new one on me.
During the Berger trips over the past few years most French cavers clip a HMS carabiner between the two loops on the Double Bowline on the bight for clipping into.
In industry we would generally clip directly into the carabiner on the bolt and not abnormally load the knots by clipping into the loops of the knot.
As PeteK point out though, we would always have two independent attachment points and there is more likelihood of being struck by lightening than having a bolt fail in an industrial work environment.
Mark
During the Berger trips over the past few years most French cavers clip a HMS carabiner between the two loops on the Double Bowline on the bight for clipping into.
In industry we would generally clip directly into the carabiner on the bolt and not abnormally load the knots by clipping into the loops of the knot.
As PeteK point out though, we would always have two independent attachment points and there is more likelihood of being struck by lightening than having a bolt fail in an industrial work environment.
Mark
Chocolate fireguard
Active member
I'm puzzled by a couple of replies that say the people would use a Fig 8 (or whatever) and an AB for a Y-hang where the bolts are a long way apart.
I'm assuming the Y-hang is approached via a traverse line and so the (taut) line to the 1st bolt of the hang would be a long way above the AB.
I have always thought that makes it tricky to get off the pitch rope and onto the traverse on the way back and I have seen people having epics in such situations. I have always used a bunny ears for this so the traverse rope goes to the knot at the bottom of the Y and also put an AB in this rope if the situation seems to require it.
But I'm always willing to learn.
I'm assuming the Y-hang is approached via a traverse line and so the (taut) line to the 1st bolt of the hang would be a long way above the AB.
I have always thought that makes it tricky to get off the pitch rope and onto the traverse on the way back and I have seen people having epics in such situations. I have always used a bunny ears for this so the traverse rope goes to the knot at the bottom of the Y and also put an AB in this rope if the situation seems to require it.
But I'm always willing to learn.
cavermark
New member
Choc fireguard - a traverse line into an alpine butterfly with a large loop, next to another Alpine with a large loop is an equivalent to the traverse line into a y-hang knot (the two large loop alpines forming the y-hang.. and being super easy to adjust, esp. if the hang isn't central between the anchors.
