New chest ascender

[Simon Wilson]

Around 3,000m of use on a complete mixture of ropes.

 

[pwhole]

Hmm...that's quite severe. I'm guessing if it's mostly in the Dales you're using it that the ropes aren't especially gritty or muddy either?

 

[droid]

Is there an argument for checking the mobility of the roller here?

 

[cavemanmike]

maybe a blast of wd after you've cleaned it(after every trip) might keep the rollers free running

 

[Dave Tyson]

maybe a blast of wd after you've cleaned it(after every trip) might keep the rollers free running

WD40 is a crap lubricant. It's great at displacing water (WD=Water Displacement). Better to use a drop of 3-in-1 oil instead...

Dave

 

[cavemanmike]

Ye I know Dave
The trouble with 3in1 is grit tends to stick in it as with water displacement grit won't
Stick as much

 

[Simon Wilson]

The problem is that the friction of the rope is not always enough to overcome the friction of the bearings. I have used it on a wide range of rope types and conditions of wetness and cleanliness. I first noticed that the rollers weren't turning when I was on very clean rope. So the abrasiveness of the rope is not the problem; the rollers not turning is the problem and that is more likely when the friction of the rope is less.

There are two bearings one is between the roller and the shaft both of which are stainless steel and have plain diameters. The other bearing is between the end of the roller and the body where there is a washer between the two. I don't know which bearing produces most friction. I have washed the TurboChest with a water jet after use most times but I have never lubricated it. I think any lubrication would be a waste of time in general caving conditions when ropes are usually wet and the ascender is being constantly subjected to a flow of muddy water which would nearly always remove all lubricant very quickly.

When the TurboChest was new the bearing surfaces would be highly polished and the friction would be low. I think the increasing friction has been due to the bearing surfaces becoming scored by small abrasive particles and I can see no way of stopping that happening. The TurboChest isn't designed for and intended for use in caving and that is all there is to it. For climbing it will be fine but it just can't cope with water which is anything less than completely free of particles. Lubrication would not help; what would be needed with this design is cleanliness and retaining the polished bearing surfaces and that isn't going to happen in Dales caves.

 

[Hammy]

Simon
In order to come to any conclusion on this I think we need to know exactly which trips you have completed to cover the 3000m of vertical Dales caving with the TurboChest over which timescale.

Please supply your trip list.

Thanks.

 

[pwhole]

I've used this stuff SuperLube with some success - it's been great on a very wet large hauling pulley, lasting a good three sessions before the squeaks start again - maybe regular applications right from the off might make it more cave-resistant:

http://www.super-lube.com/super-lube-multipurpose-aerosol-ezp-68.html

Alternatively I guess only sealed bearings would solve this particular problem. But if it did it would be worth paying a bit more.

 

[Simon Wilson]

I've used this stuff SuperLube with some success - it's been great on a very wet large hauling pulley, lasting a good three sessions before the squeaks start again - maybe regular applications right from the off might make it more cave-resistant:

http://www.super-lube.com/super-lube-multipurpose-aerosol-ezp-68.html

Alternatively I guess only sealed bearings would solve this particular problem. But if it did it would be worth paying a bit more.

The TurboChest would have to be radically designed for them to incorporate sealed bearings and would have to be considerably larger. I think any lubricant would be ineffective. It would have to get well into the bearings and displace the abrasive material which is not possible with the design as it is. If you could get lubricant in then muddy water would also get in as soon as you took it near muddy water, which is in virtually any cave in the Dales.

Using gear designed for climbing in caves is a bit like the difference between road bike riding and mountain bike riding. If you ride a bicycle through mud you will wear out chains and chain rings a lot faster than if you ride on the road.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Simon
In order to come to any conclusion on this I think we need to know exactly which trips you have completed to cover the 3000m of vertical Dales caving with the TurboChest over which timescale.

Please supply your trip list.

Thanks.

I bought in at the start of January. It has done about 15 trips down Boxhead hauling some very heavy loads on occasions, about 8 trips down Lost Johns, about 6 trips down Stream Passage including going up and down some pitches several times in each of those caves and hauling loads, 1 each down Diccan, Alum and Hardrawkin and a few other bits and bobs. The 3,000m was just a guesstimate. Some have been on newly washed 9mm rope and some have been on 11mm rope that has been brand new and clean but has also become increasingly muddy with traffic down Boxhead and Stream. The rope on Boxhead entrance was 10mm rope which was very tatty and had been there for about four years. The rope on the rest of Boxhead was new and clean at the start. During the wet weather the permanent rigging in Boxhead has been self-cleaning with a steady trickle of water over it. The TurboChest has been subject to a typical variety of ropes in different states of cleanliness just as any active caver is likely to put it through.

I have been taking particular notice of the abrasiveness of the ropes I have been using. I have also cleaned the TurboChest and inspected it after every use because I have been carefully monitoring how it was wearing just as I said publicly that I would.

During the same period I have also worn out a Simple bottom bobbin. The ropes in Boxhead might have accounted for a large proportion of the wear to the descender. Those ropes did become fairly muddy during the last few trips as they got a lot of traffic by people during our big post-dig cleanup operation in the drier weather. However, I have been noticing how the rollers turn and they always turn on muddier and drier ropes and tend not to turn on cleaner ropes. So I think the greatest wear occurs on ropes which are cleanish but with some abrasive material present. Once a flat develops on the roller then the flat is favoured and the roller is more likely to stop rotating at that point.

There is a school of thought on the abrasiveness of caving rope which says that the worst abrasive is aluminium oxide which is deposited on the rope mainly from descenders and which becomes embedded in the rope fibres possibly with the assistance of heat so that it cannot be removed by washing. That is why older rope looks grey and not muddy brown.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_oxide

 

[MarkS]

For what it's worth, I've had my turbo chest for several years now. It's done an average of around 1 trip a week in that time, plus several expeditions. I've never taken particular care to clean it after each trip, and although the rollers certainly don't actually turn a lot of the time when prussiking, they don't seem especially worn. So far it's faring better than I'd expect an (old style) croll to. Looks like it's still got plenty of life left in it, too

 

[Hammy]

Thanks for the info Simon it helps to put things into perspective.

I wonder if the 'hauling very heavy loads' is what is causing your equipment to wear so rapidly?

 

[cavemanmike]

personally you can't beat the old style pertz crol as already discussed l

 

[global_s]

Do they make ascending easier then using Croll (at least when new)?

 

[Simon Wilson]

I'm sure that hauling loads has an effect on the rate of wear and it's not often that I'm not hauling loads.

I met somebody underground yesterday who had a TurboChest that had been used less than mine and the top roller had flats on it.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Do they make ascending easier then using Croll (at least when new)?

Maybe a tiny bit. You would expect them to have less friction but it's hard to gauge. They seem to have slightly less friction than an earlier type Croll but so does the B16BAA Croll with its "wear plate" (plate that wears).

 

[Disgusted from Cornwall.]

I find the rollery-chest ascender to be considerably better than a croll, or a CT chest ascender. I use a foot ascender a lot and the slight change of angle (up to 30 degrees) is responsible for a fair bit of friction. The rollers work well and despite having some serious abuse, are still free running, not flat spotted and are great. The rope drops through it more freely as well. It gets 5 stars from me.

On simple pitches, I use a Petzl J rack descender, recently, I have misplaced my 10mm maillon I use to attach it to my harness D. I have gone back to an oval krab. One thing I have noticed and I'm not happy with this, is that the ascender seems to "go through" the crab, vying for "top spot". This is an irritation and I need to change my technique slightly to accomodate this.

 

[snoboy]

The Beal ascender looks like it would be bloody painful in the crawls! I already get bruises from time to time on my ribs from my Croll!

If you look closely, it appears the top attachment is slotted in the back hole, likely for a strap to hold it up.

 

[pete_the_caver]

Black is not an ideal colour for caving equipment. It's your choice, and that is cool, though.

Years ago a fellow caver put his Croll down on a rock in a smallish chamber resulting in three of us spending twenty minutes looking for it. As a result, from then on, I tried to have fluoro coloured kit, especially my cave diving kit


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