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One Million Lumen

rom82

Member
There's more to lightening than just lumen power. What about light quality and warmth provided by LEDs? I find pictures lit by helmet lights to be generally very poor (i.e. needing high ISO, very open apertures, long exposures etc.) with little warmth.

Also, the greater the lumen power you fire the more you need for it to be spread over a wide area. LEDs are typically used in very small reflectors and I can't see 1 million lumens being useful if is not fired from a very large reflector. In that case it would be very likely to strongly over expose a small region of the photo and leave other regions totally dark.

I will back a kickstarter campaign that see to introduce flashbulbs again!
 
blackholesun said:
it looks on paper at least, that a few batteries, a transformer, a 100V 2uF capacitor, and 9 50W COB LEDs should be able to get you something close to this.

'fraid not. Youve made quite a few wrong assumptions.  To demonstrate this, just look at the bottom line... your capacitor is storing a hundredth of a joule. If you want to take a photo then, very broadly speaking, you need something like 10 joules of electrical energy, which you need to convert into light. Obviously it depends on how well you convert that to light energy - flashguns convert at about 50 lumen-seconds per joule; good LEDs at about three times that. And it depends on how well you convert your lumen-seconds to candela-seconds (i.e. how well you focus the beam). But - broadly speaking - your small capacitor is storing only a thousandth of the  required energy :(

The salient point is that "lumens" bear little relationship to what you need to take a photo. The unit that is relevant is the candela-second. If you check the catalogues of manufacturers of studio flashguns you'll see that they are rated (sometimes) in cd-s, not lumens.

I cant think of a good analogy but .... consider the 0-60mph in X seconds "rating" of a car.  That's not really a good way of rating a car - youre better off looking at fuel economy. Its a BIT like that with lighting - lots of lumens "sounds good" but it really has little to do with how the light performs for photography.


 

blackholesun

New member
Oh well, I enjoyed the exercise. It did seem a very small capacitor, but then I couldn't find the flaws in my maths.

However, (I'm sure I've read it on the website, but cant find it now), this flash is less bright than a Yongnuo 560 at 1/128 power (less lumen-seconds). If we say the Yongnuo at full power gives 10 J, then perhaps I'm less than a factor of 10 out, rather than a factor of 1000. Add in the difference in efficiency between flash and LED's and it's starting to look not so far out.
 

Antwan

Member
Hopefully in 5 years time LED tech will be at an appropriate stage so I can make one for my final uni project  :-\
 

Duncan S

New member
Interesting thread this....
I've been experimenting with 30W Cree portable floodlights; weatherproof with a lovely flat light over about 120deg good for about 4 hours.
I don't usually need 4 hours and sometimes would appreciate more light.
Hence what I'm looking for is exactly what I've already got, but with more than a single 30W LED  with the ability to switch LEDs in and out.
At first sight this project looked really relevant, but was disappointed after a quick read.

I've been thinking about finding a tinkerer to make me one - any recommendations?
 

Les W

Active member
Duncan S said:
Interesting thread this....
I've been experimenting with 30W Cree portable floodlights; weatherproof with a lovely flat light over about 120deg good for about 4 hours.
I don't usually need 4 hours and sometimes would appreciate more light.
Hence what I'm looking for is exactly what I've already got, but with more than a single 30W LED  with the ability to switch LEDs in and out.
At first sight this project looked really relevant, but was disappointed after a quick read.

I've been thinking about finding a tinkerer to make me one - any recommendations?

I remember Biff at Custom Duo having some photographic lights. They seemed to work well and really lit up a cave so you could do good photos. I see from their website they are currently out of stock/production but a new version is said to be due soon...

http://www.customduo.co.uk/Pages/blindbat.aspx
 

Duncan S

New member
Les W said:
I remember Biff at Custom Duo having some photographic lights. They seemed to work well and really lit up a cave so you could do good photos. I see from their website they are currently out of stock/production but a new version is said to be due soon...

http://www.customduo.co.uk/Pages/blindbat.aspx
Thanks Les!
Sarah had mentioned there was a local-ish company that did specialist lighting, but I didn't catch the details - that's them!
Blind Bat replacement sounds interesting...

Here's a link to the better of the two floodlights I'm using - the specs quote 2000+ lumens and it looks bright even compared to a dive light I have with an alleged 3000 lumens (big, heavy and crap battery life but works great as a pocket warmer).
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/161391110617?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
The reflector on that does nothing, it's much shallower than those images appear; in fact I'm not sure the pictures are even the same unit!
Hence, what I'm thinking is to ditch the reflector and mount another of those chips (or two). I reckon the substantial finned heat sink is up to it as it barely gets warm at the mo.
 

Duncan S

New member
royfellows said:
The cheapest photo lamp solution would be a powerful Chinese LED torch with a clear plastic bag over it to diffuse the light.
Or use a purpose designed diffuser - delivered ?2.09.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/201249965813?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Mine is due imminently and I'm hoping it will make my 3000 lumen (allegedly) dive light far more useful. At the mo the beam is far too focussed for my purposes; I looked at removing the reflector but it's machined billet and an integral part of the whole thing.
Will report back with results :)
 
Antwan said:
Hopefully in 5 years time LED tech will be at an appropriate stage so I can make one for my final uni project  :-\
The technology is there now!  The salient point is that to take a photo you need more light than you think.

The efficacy of commercial LEDs is around 150 lm/W now. Lab samples are over 200, but its not going to get too much higher than that, because there is a theoretical limit, which for white light is under 300.  Doubling the efficacy "does little" for photography - e.g. all it does is half your exposure time or allow you to stop down the aperture by one stop.  The only reason for you to wait five years is in case the price  comes down. :)

There is a well-established formula that relates the candela-second rating of a light source to the photographic guide number. That's why I said that you needed about 10 joules of electrical energy to take a photo. Obviously that depends on the speed of the "film", and one advantage of a digital camera is that you can - these days - turn the gain up quite high, i.e. it works well in low-light conditions.

The "figures of merit" you need for taking a photo are therefore the guide number and the camera settings such as aperture and film speed. OK, we know all that, but the point Im making is that guide number is related to the candela-second rating and NOT to the lumen rating of the light source. All this fixation with lumens is slightly wide of the mark :)  The reasons being a) the candela is a measure of the concentration of the beam (if it is more concentrated, it is brighter of course, for the same lumens), and b) you need to take into account the exposure time. Viz... if your light source is 1,000,000 lumens and its on for only a microsecond, that's great for high-speed photography but that's only the same exposure as a very modest 10 lumens that is on for a tenth of a second. Both exposures are only one lumen-second.

To take a photo you may need, say, 1500 lumen-seconds or, lets say, around 4000 candela-seconds. Obviously these figures are all very vague. Ive taken them from an article Ive written for the next issue of the CREG journal.  Its very long and very mathematical, but it ends up deriving the formula for guide number in terms of the BCPS (beam candlepower seconds)  figure for a light source and goes on to give a brief example of a 7W LED which, when used with the right reflector, might result in a guide number similar to that of a flashbulb or a  'pretty-good' flashgun (say 40m @ 100ASA), for a 1.4s exposure time. See http://bcra.org.uk/cregj

To get back to your point about a project: things arent going to change much in five years - apart from a modest increase in efficacy, and a decrease in cost. So there is no reason not to start designing that LED flashgun now!  The main design point is to do with exposure time. In the example, above, I said that a 7W LED was used with a 1.4s exposure time (i.e. about 10 joules of electrical energy).  If you want to reduce that exposure time, to make a true "flash" gun, you need to bring it down to, say, 28ms, so you would need 50 LEDs. (I dont think over-driving the LEDs by "much" is a good idea - you will drastically shorten their lifetime. Heat is not the only problem - its the current density in the semiconductor that might be more significant a problem).

In some respects, the design is simpler than making an LED lamp because you wont have to think about heat-sinking. Getting rid of getting-on-for 300W would be a problem if it was on a continuous basis, but if you limit yourself to 1 flash every 10 seconds, that's only 30W. In fact, rather than building one large gun, it might be better to use many small ones, all slaved together. This gives you some redundancy and takes me back to a project of many, many years ago, the "redundant array of little flashguns" (RALF).

Ive mentioned guide number. Those of you who use flashguns will know how vague a term this is. Its a "guide" and caves are not the "typical scenes" for which is was derived. What would be really helpful would be if someone could establish the guide number of some typical LED lamps, via some carefully-planned practical tests.  For example, Footleg and others have described using LED lamps for cave photography in the pages of the CREG journal but I dont think they actually give a figure for "guide number". Apologies if Im wrong about that. Having some info in the public domain on "guide number of caving lamps" would be good. If you want to write an article for the CREG journal, please contact Rob Gill via the CREG or BCRA web sites.



 

Duncan S

New member
Here's an indicator of how well a 30W LED floodlight works (same one I linked to above).
ISO 6400, f4 and hand-holdable at 1/30s.
I39A6268-Edit-S.jpg

There is also a fill-in light focussed into the deep shadows above the caver and another one in the in the crawl; but they aren't impacting the overall brightness of the scene.

The only way I'd be able to use that lighting set-up in a bigger space would be with a tripod.
 
Duncan S said:
Here's an indicator of how well a 30W LED floodlight works (same one I linked to above).
ISO 6400, f4 and hand-holdable at 1/30s.
(Nice photos at flickr by the way).

If the distance from the light to the subject was, as a wild approximation, 8m, then youve got a guide number of 32 at ISO 6400. That corresponds to 4m at ISO 100, which is pretty low for a flashgun. But it confirms my point that you can turn up the gain with digital cameras!  That's for a 1/30 s exposure. If the exposure was 1s (30 times longer) your guide number would go up by sqrt(30), or around 5.5 times, to 22m at iso 100.

How does that compare with my theoretical example?  Well, if I take the reflector off my LED, and look at its centre-beam intensity (1250 cd from CREE datasheet); and scale it up from 7W to 30W (5400 cd), and drop the exposure time from 1.4s to 1/30th sec (so BCPS figure is 180 cd.s) I seem to get an answer of 9 ... compared with your 4. That's almost exact, in the approximate world of photography! - especially as I picked a figure out of the air for the distance of 8m.

One conclusion ... which you can get from looking at your photo, without any waffle from me ... is that huge guide numbers are not required if you are happy to whack the gain on your camera up to ISO 6400.  I think this sort-of supports my suggestion of making a lot of little slaved flashguns rather than one large one.  Point them all in the same direction - or spread the around - it gives you more versatility.

Ive been wondering, for a while, whether I should embark upon a flashgun project.  Im starting to think it could be a good idea... although I dont know whether I can spare the time. :(



 

Duncan S

New member
That particular camera will produce exhibition quality A3 prints from ISO 6400 - so it works for me :)

Main reasons I'm using 1/30s are that it is a great shutter speed for capturing moving water (which there is a lot of in that cave), and used with my 15mm lens gives me an adequate margin for hand-holding without IS.

I'd have liked more light so I can lower the ISO or light a bigger space without using a tripod; hence my interest in this thread.
 

Mr Mike

Active member
Duncan, What type of LED (Lumens bins, colour temp etc...) exactly did you use for your light and how did you power it?
 

Duncan S

New member
Bought from eBay - self contained rechargeable.
With the stand and handle removed it packs down reasonably well.
Colour temperature is a close match for cavers LED lighting such as the Scurion in the earlier image.
This is the link I bought mine from:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/161391110617?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
It doesn't look quite like that as the reflector is slightly shallower and wider.
Weatherproofing looks excellent, at least IP64; unlike a similar 10W unit I bought earlier which doesn't even have o-rings (despite claiming IP64).
Probably OTT for general caving use, but I also enclose it inside a watertight bag. This combo will pass through Sump 1 with no concerns and I've even used it submerged in a pot :)

There's a huge difference between the spot from a head torch and this floodlight which fills the whole cavern.
As soon as the floodlight gets turned off the cave plunges into darkness only accentuated by the remaining fill-in lights and head torches. While my eyes adjust it is quite disconcerting and I struggle to work out whether my head torch is on.
 

royfellows

Well-known member
Duncan S said:
There's a huge difference between the spot from a head torch and this floodlight which fills the whole cavern.
As soon as the floodlight gets turned off the cave plunges into darkness only accentuated by the remaining fill-in lights and head torches. While my eyes adjust it is quite disconcerting and I struggle to work out whether my head torch is on.

Interesting observation.
I have powerful floods in headlamp and using these ruins underground vision quicker than anything.
 

Antwan

Member
DavidGibson said:
Antwan said:
Hopefully in 5 years time LED tech will be at an appropriate stage so I can make one for my final uni project  :-\
The technology is there now!  The salient point is that to take a photo you need more light than you think.

I was actually thinking about a project on the whole, and hoping there would be hundreds (if not thousands) of SLS machines in the UK sat idle ready to make some sexy looking cases rather cheaper than current prices. I have a few interesting ideas, but for me to accept the compromise of LED vs. Strobe it would need to be ridiculously light weight so 4 units would take up the same weight/space as a regular flash, built in RF trigger and then my Interesting Ideas!

Thanks for mentioning RALF too... lead me to many interesting websites and now I know my PC clock is 10.51 seconds slow!

Duncan S said:
Bought from eBay - self contained rechargeable.
With the stand and handle removed it packs down reasonably well.

I don't think it packs down much smaller than my flash guns (having had eyes on similar in shops), so I'll keep quietly working on my own version and stick to my flash guns for now

 

Duncan S

New member
Antwan said:
I don't think it packs down much smaller than my flash guns (having had eyes on similar in shops), so I'll keep quietly working on my own version and stick to my flash guns for now
It doesn't, and it almost certainly weighs more :)

But continuous lighting does wonders portraying moving water in a way that flash never can, and it suits my style.
e.g. Big floodlight at floor level bottom left, fill in light at the top of the frame lighting the top of the pitch and another fill in light behind the waterfall pointed straight at the camera.
ISO 2000, f4, hand held at 1/30s
I39A6409-S.jpg


Horses for courses...  :beer:
 

royfellows

Well-known member
Duncan S said:
But continuous lighting does wonders portraying moving water in a way that flash never can

I used to work with multiple firings to get this effect with a flashgun, and it did work. But whether or not as good as continuous lighting is open to debate.
 

bograt

Active member
I agree that strobe/xenon discharge 'freezes' falling water, bulbs give a far better effect, I suspect that LED flashes if set up correctly could emulate bulb flash, though it could involve tripod and cable release.
 
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