People enlarging squeezes again

[Cartwright26]

First gentlewomans now some bugger has enlarged the squeeze in mossdale pot http://cro.org.uk/incident-612014-sep-12-fri-18-37-newby-moss-pot-north-yorkshire-cave-rescue/

 

[ChrisJC]

How would you have responded?

Let them lose a bit of weight naturally (like Winnie the Pooh)?

Chris.

 

[Lazarus]

Wouldn't that be Newby Moss Pot?

 

[The Old Ruminator]

Thats an interesting topic. When to enlarge a squeeze. I can think of a few I might like to make bigger now at my age. Green Lake Grotto in Withyhill is a classic example. A thin flake stops quite a few folk getting up there. One bash would remove it. No I am not advocating that of course. Suffice it to say the temptation has been overcome now for over 40 years. The awkward bit at the top of Hard Times in Reservoir has also remained. Really we should have done it on the original exploration but we were in too much of a hurry. It was a dig back then but now a trade route. Perhaps that is the core of the argument ( if there is one ). If it wasnt done then it shouldn't be done now. At some time special projects might mean that squeezes be enlarged. We only just got the LIDAR kit down to TFD without enlarging the crawls. We have another special project in mind which requires a very large box. Does that justify enlarging the odd bit here or there ? With squeezes I find at later stages in life you become less flexible. Its the chest bit that does it for me. My sternum has solidified. A bit later on I might be advocating wheelchair access.

 

[topcat]

Aye, it's a funny one.  Tens of meters of 'mined' [ie blasted] passage to open up a worth while cave, followed by a very tight natural  'knobble' that was left in place.
I guess we sporting cavers just have to take it as it comes, with due thanks to the diggers! :bow:

 

[Joe90]

Its a funny subject where people will have divided opinions and views all over the place. I guess if it is widened up as people first go through exploring then it is seen as acceptable as it is in the name of exploration and pushing new limits. Where as widening a well traveled part of passage way may cause more upset as it could be seen as 'unnecessary'.

Recently I tried to widen (fairly unsuccessfully) a tight pitch top that i couldn't get through with my descender attached to my harness and had to extend it out on a cowstail to fit through. Getting up was worse still as there wasn't room to bend your knee raising your Pantin (if you remembered it) or to lift your footloop. We did manage to take off a few small slivers which made a small difference but it was still damned hard. I see that as acceptable 'Widening', Don't know why but i do, There was no intention of making it a gaping hole but just more friendly/doable.

 

[martinm]

I agree with Joe90. As I have said before on here, when pushing a cave why make it more difficult for yourself, esp as you get older, less flexible, etc. Just make the thing OK to get through for most cavers, (including older cavers as they get less flexible, etc. We all love caving, so try to make sure any new routes can be negotiated by those slightly older / less fit than you), make sure you can get your gear through reasonably easily, then leave it at that. Life is too short...

 

[droid]

Using Trad climbing as an analogy, the cave should be left in the same state as the original explorers left it, with the exception of updated rigging points.

 

[Joe90]

I think that is what must be the common view on the matter, its what i would generally say is the right thing to do.

 

[topcat]

a tight pitch top that i couldn't get through with my descender attached to my harness and had to extend it out on a cowstail to fit through. Getting up was worse still as there wasn't room to bend your knee raising your Pantin (if you remembered it) or to lift your footloop.

I had the very same problem in Jeans Pot and needed assistance...and I hadn't taken the pantin!  The constriction at the pitch head was a chock stone boulder, too well jammed to trundle!

 

[Joe90]

Most people needed assistance getting through this one too. It was a real pig to get out off.

 

[pwhole]

I widened a vertical squeeze a couple of years ago in a lead mine a group of us are exploring - partly as it was clearly an access-way already, but also as you couldn't get through with SRT kit on without extreme bruising and some very panicked thrashing. Needless to say, rescue would have been impossible beyond that point without creating even more damage to the injured party, and as the site wasn't 'on the list' at that point (and even if it were no-one would have thought to look there), I considered it good practice to open it up a little with plug and feathers. Any rescuer would have done the same immediately as there's no other way round it.

It's still damn tight, and I may open it up further at some point to get equipment through, should it ever be necessary. It doesn't spoil the trip having it easier and safer, as you've still got to drop through with your nose scraping rock. But it being 'our' dig certainly makes the decision-making process easier, as there's no need to consult, and until a conservation survey is produced, nobody knows what's where anyway. Also being a mine makes the decision even easier, as the hole has already been made by humans (and backfilled with deads either side of it), so it's hardly a change in character, just less of a death-trap. There's plenty further on beyond the squeeze to restore that classification 

 

[badger]

with a 46" barrel chest there is plenty of squeeze's that I cannot get through and many I would not even try.
should squeezes be enlarged I would say from my point of view is that an overview of the whole system needs to be looked at, how easy is it to enlarge, say if it is just a lump as opposed to metres of passage,
one digger put it this way to me, he digs a passage big enough for him to get through, if you want to make bigger then go for it, just don't expect him to dig it for anyone else

 

[Roger W]

My first thought on reading the CRO report was, should they have used the plug and feathers on the trapped caver rather than the rock?

Seriously,though - the options are surely a bit limited when someone is actually stuck on the wrong side of a constriction and presumably all the standard techniques like stripping naked and greasing with suitable lubricant have been tried?  Or am I wrong in seeing this as a different situation to OR being tempted to remove that flake?

 

[cap n chris]

I'd be so delighted to find something worthwhile visiting that I'd be more than prepared to make any narrow approach section sufficiently large to enable pretty nearly any caver to easily access it. I would consider it a courtesy to do this for the wider (see what I did there?) caving community.

 

[graham]

I'd be so delighted to find something worthwhile visiting that I'd be more than prepared to make any narrow approach section sufficiently large to enable pretty nearly any caver to easily access it. I would consider it a courtesy to do this for the wider (see what I did there?) caving community.

Remove all secondary mineralisation. Restore caves to their 'proper' size. 

 

[maxf]

Just need someone to get stuck in pieres pot now....

 

[graham]

Just need someone to get stuck in pieres pot now....

Nah, even I can get through that.

 

[Rachel]

I can feel a money making scheme coming on.... for a small fee, name a squeeze you'd like enlarging and I'll go and jam myself in it and wait for CRO to come along. 

 

[bograt]

I can feel a money making scheme coming on.... for a small fee, name a squeeze you'd like enlarging and I'll go and jam myself in it and wait for CRO to come along.