Petzl Croll L - cam not engaging?

[Steve Clark]

[ Caveat : I've not done much SRT, dozen trips / 20 pitches maybe ]

Had a bit of a problem coming out of Lancaster Hole on Sunday. Started prussiking and after 3-4m or so, the Croll L cam stopped engaging on the rope properly. It seemed to be held slightly away from the rope and I just slid back down on to the top jammer link. Happened a few times. It held fine if I put my finger under the cam to get the initial grab. Almost like the spring had failed. Down-prussiking with a thumb was awkward because the cam just stuck in position slightly away from the rope. We did have a bag tied to the bottom of the rope, but took this off and it didn't seem to make any difference. So did a proper up-down changeover and came back down. Borrowed another older croll from the team and it was all fine. Setup was RH hand jammer, L foot footloop, R foot pantin.

I've had a look at the Croll afterwards. I couldn't get the problem to repeat when it was held in my hand. It was reasonably clean, no big chunks of mud. The spring however does seem to be markedly weaker than an older croll, a petzl handled jammer and another croll S I have at home. More like the tension in the pantin cam. I washed it and put a squirt of silicone grease on the spring. Slightly better but still feels 'weak'. Is this normal for a new-ish Croll L?

Or, am I/could I be doing something wrong? Can the cam or the black safety catch get held open on the oversuit and/or a bit of mud? Can body position with the pantin cause this?

 

[royfellows]

I have had problems with muddy rope, both Croll and floating jammer, but really more with the floating. I believe the thumb pressure is common and generally accepted. At least I have got used to it.

 

[aricooperdavis]

Body position with a pantin can definitely cause this as you can accidentally push one side of your body up more than the other, putting you at an angle. This causes the rope you're ascending to run through the croll at an angle and reduces the ability of the cam to catch. It's worth rigging a rope up and having a play to try to get it to happen again so you can experiment with fixes, such as adjusting the length of your foot-loop, switching hands on your hand ascender, or swapping to a left foot pantin if you can borrow one. Slightly loosening the chest harness might also help, depending on the design you've got.

That being said, the cam shouldn't stick away from the rope when you're down prussiking. That sounds like a jammed up cam.

 

[MJenkinson]

(Caveat - I use an old croll)

Seems a bit weird that.  I mean if your safety catch etc was being pulled open by your suit, the rope would be free to come out completely and that's pretty noticeable.

I'd say that maybe your pantin is pulling the rope away from the cam teeth, but if your pantin is on your right foot (and I guess therefore to be pushing slightly to the right if anything) this shouldn't be the case.

Not foolproof but maybe do a swap with someone with a bit more experience and see if it does it for them? If they have the same issue then something is afoot.

 

[Steve Clark]

Sorry, this may be clearer :

The cam appeared to be 'sticking' slightly open, say 3-4mm away from the rope. I could see the gap. Just enough for the (practically brand new) teeth not to engage with the rope. The black catch was still closed and I don't think I could actually get the rope out.

The rear of the black catch sticks out a bit below the frame and I thought this was maybe dragging on the suit, holding it open.

With a older croll (blue metal safety catch) and half worn teeth I had no problem at all with the same pantin setup. The spring feels stronger though.

I will have a play on a rope and take it in to compare the spring with a shop fresh model.

 

[royfellows]

This is a lot clearer.
As its a new one, I am wondering if we are seeing yet another desgn fault. First the "Rope cutter" and now "The non gripper".
I note what you say about the spring feeling weak.

 

[pwhole]

I stopped using Crolls for caving a few years ago as I was sick to death of the cheap build quality and weak materials they were using - I wasn't even getting twelve months out of one, and even if the body didn't wear, the teeth were flat. It's not an issue in rope access as they're not used that often, and tend not to get the same crap in there - and I still suspect that they're made from better-quality components. So I switched to a Camp Turbo, and will never go back - they're slightly more expensive, but I can get 2-3 years out of one, they're tough as hell, and the teeth don't wear for ages.

As I was having similar problems as above with the Petzl Basic, I stopped using them too and bought a Camp Solo 2 - same result - fantastic. The only Petzl product I now use for caving is the Pantin, and that's currently being repaired by Tony S after it fell apart on me after only two metres climbing on Saturday. So I'm almost certainly getting the Camp Turbofoot ascender next! And then I'll be freeeee

 

[MJenkinson]

The cam appeared to be 'sticking' slightly open, say 3-4mm away from the rope. I could see the gap. Just enough for the (practically brand new) teeth not to engage with the rope. The black catch was still closed and I don't think I could actually get the rope out.

If its still doing that when clean, lubed and after a good dose of "wiggling", then its not right. 

 

[Steve Clark]

If its still doing that when clean, lubed and after a good dose of "wiggling", then its not right.

Borderline I reckon. It seems to work normally on a bit of rope when it's clean, just feels weak. Hence I guess a bit of muck may be enough to hold it open.

To get an idea of the spring, if I shake a Petzl handled jammer or an old croll in my hand, the cam stays shut. If I shake this one it opens slightly and rattles.

 

[Fjell]

The older chrome-plated cam was way better and lasted far longer (I wore the body out before the cam usually), and it is mystery why they changed it from a quality point of view at least.

I bought a new Croll L for my wife on the basis that she always gets the new gear being more valuable than me. I gave her mine after she got bizarrely hung up for a short while with the teeth stuck in the rope sheath somehow - never seen that before, wouldn?t come off. Teeth are too long I think.

And lets not discuss my shopping mistake getting one of the small ones before that, it?s lying unused in the cupboard. The new small basic top ascender isn?t much better, but at least I sometimes use it for casual short pitches.

We have a new Pantin and one of the 1st gen as well - the latter is better.

It?s right up there with not making a decent caving helmet any more.

 

[royfellows]

To get an idea of the spring, if I shake a Petzl handled jammer or an old croll in my hand, the cam stays shut. If I shake this one it opens slightly and rattles.

There's your answer I would say, defective product. Needs to go back.
I am wondering if Petzl are going down the drain. this sort of thing has being going now for a while. They knocked the Ecrin Roc, best caving helmet ever, that must have brought a curse down on them.
I dont do much SRT these days, so my kit is all pre foul up time.

 

[andrewmcleod]

There's your answer I would say, defective product. Needs to go back.
I am wondering if Petzl are going down the drain. this sort of thing has being going now for a while. They knocked the Ecrin Roc, best caving helmet ever, that must have brought a curse down on them.
I dont do much SRT these days, so my kit is all pre foul up time.

I'm pretty happy with both Petzl quality and price these days for most things. Stuff has become more lightweight in some cases, and obviously something with less material is inevitably going to take less wear than something massively overbuilt - but there's a reason we all take alloy rather than steel crabs, for example. Their stuff is also reasonably bombproof underground in my experience - I have several Petzl triple-action carabiners that go underground a lot (one on my hand ascender and my central maillon) and never have any problems with them. Meanwhile, my brief experiences with DMM triple action carabiners underground were that they were awful and jammed almost immediately - and DMM is definitely a quality manufacturer.

The newer Petzl helmets are almost certainly less durable than the Ecrin Roc but they are also probably less 'safe'. The newer foam helmets have better side/back protection than the previous models (e.g. the Boreo vs the Elios for a good comparison). If you fall over, and wallop the side or back of your head, you've got more chance of taking the blow on the helmet on one of their newer helmets. Helmet standards have always focused on the 'rock from nearly directly above' standard, and less on the 'you've slipped/fallen on rope and walloped your head' standard.

Something like an Ecrin Roc with a cradle is perfectly good at load spreading when a rock hits your head, but will have less energy absorption than a foam-lined helmet (if any).

There are still plenty of Ecrin Rocs about for those that like them, and helmets that are pretty similar (like the Edelrid Ultralight).


Back to the Croll: if the spring is weak (and obviously weaker than other equivalent Petzl ascenders) then that would seem to suggest it was faulty, and (if not too old/heavily worn) I'd be looking for refund/replacement.

 

[Cantclimbtom]

I just compared an oldskool Croll, against a new Croll L
Croll L is by design a firmer spring that baby Croll (says petzl but I've never used baby Croll myself)

I find that old Croll can withstand some easy to gentle-moderate shaking before the cam flaps, but if you are any vigorous it will flap. There is only 1 spring on the cam (not counting the metal catch's spring)

New Croll L is pretty similar but a very slightly softer spring and withstands easy shaking but will flap on anything more vigorous. It definitely closes again when poked by finger, no chance of staying open. There is only 1 spring on the cam (not counting the plasticy catch's spring)

Your description doesn't match mine. Something isn't happy with your cam

 

[Ian P]

Just to ensure all possible avenues are covered.

Where did you buy it ?

We had someone on an SRT training workshop really struggling with his brand new Croll. Upon further investigation and questions it turned out to be a counterfeit bought of the internet.

Just a thought?

Ian

 

[Cantclimbtom]

"Chinese Petzl Croll" is an anagram of "Zero Clench Let Slip"
Could that be a mere coincidence???

 

[Steve Clark]

Well, it was bought off the internet, but from Inglesport, so I have absolutely no worries about it being genuine. About 18 months old. Only really used in anger in this last month or so. I'll hopefully get over to see them later this week so Dave can have a fiddle with it. They've always been great with support in my experience.

Thanks all for the input, I've got a better idea of what's 'normal' and it's not just user-error / incompetence on my part.

I'll report back when I know a bit more.

 

[MJenkinson]

The new small basic top ascender isn?t much better, but at least I sometimes use it for casual short pitches.

Don't say that, I just spent 45 quid on one!

 

[Steve Clark]

"Chinese Petzl Croll" is an anagram of "Zero Clench Let Slip"
Could that be a mere coincidence???

Also describes the user experience...

 

[Fjell]

"Chinese Petzl Croll" is an anagram of "Zero Clench Let Slip"
Could that be a mere coincidence???

Also describes the user experience...

I don?t use the small Croll any more because it failed to lock sitting down on a number of occasions, felt like you were off rope. It happened from new. Don?t need that. I think it was when using Pantin.

 

[Joel Corrigan]

My twopence: I stopped using the small Crolls not long after they came out for a number of reasons.  1), they definitely slip a lot more on muddy ropes than their big brothers; 2), they're more difficult to release during mid-rope pickoff rescues than the bigger ones; 3), from what I can remember, it's more awkward to clean the mud out of them than the old versions.

We came up with a little trick in the Dachstein to deal with slippage as we'd be climbing for hundreds of metres without any firm attachment to the ropes (one step up, two steps down, essentially, as none of our devices would grip).  We found that as soon as you finish your up-climb, you flick your hip to one side & that seemed to engage the Croll-cam.  It won't make much sense until you actually try it out in the air but it made a big difference.   

Using a Pantin wears out a Croll a lot quicker: a friend of mine in Germany did some experiments so he could probably give me his results if i bothered to ask.  I use the smaller Crolls for work unless I'm on muddy ropes as 99% of the time they're fine.  One day I'll get around to trying out the Chest Roller...

As Ari suggested (I think): try a few different combinations, but also try it out on different diameters of rope, as if you're struggling on 10mm then it might be more entertaining on 9 or 8.