Phaethon Lights

[Duncan S]

FYI - I've just ordered a pair of Phaethon Dual with helmet mounts.
As far as I can work out they are well worth taking the risk of being an early adopter.

The Dual doesn't have silly strobe modes - that ought to make the earlier posters happy

I killed a recommended backup caving light through submersion and my reasonably bombproof Chinese miners lamp now has occasional condensation under the glass which has to limit its life expectancy. Sure, 250m diving depth is well OTT for anything I'm likely to do, but it's never going to cause me worries taking it through a sump!

The things that attracted me to take the risk and buy these lights are:
I want to use the flood as fill light in for my photography; there is no solid bezel and the flood LED is nice and close to the glass giving a wide angle with even coverage.
If I drain the batteries faffing around with the camera then I don't have to worry about getting out the cave as I will be able to change the 18650 batteries.
They look blimmin well engineered!

If you meet a hairy caver with a distinctly different looking lamp, it's probably going to be me.
Please do say hello

 

[royfellows]

Duncan. A bit of well intentioned advice.
As this lamp only uses 2 cells I advise buying best quality, dont even think about any 'JunkFire' brand.
Also, Li Ions have an issue whereby the higher the capacity the lower the discharge rate, and as the cells can be easily changed I would sacrifice a bit of capacity in favour of discharge rate.

With so many people on here buying the new lamp offerings, Phaetheon, Pulsar etc, I am sure everyone would appreciate reviews
Hopefully after a bit of usage, not when they come out of the box.

 

[Olaf]

Roy: Which batteries would you recommend then? I don't quite understand the "sacrifice a bit of capacity for discharge rate". At 3.7V and say 3400mAh capacity even a discharge rate as low as 1C would provide 25W from a pair of batteries, which should be quite enough for a caving light (even the Phaeton at full power)...

 

[global_s]

Panasonic cells have a good reputation for flashlights and you can get them very cheap here if you don't mind a wait.

http://m.gearbest.com/panasonic-18650-_gear/

 

[royfellows]

I don't believe that there is such a thing as a 3400 mAh 18650 Li Ion battery although such a claim will be made by some sellers.

A lot of quality cells are Sanyo relabelled and fitted with protection circuits. I consider protection against short circuit, overcharge, over discharge, essential as if short circuited a Li Ion cell can experience what's called "thermal runaway" and it this happens inside a sealed aluminium container you get a pipe bomb. Overcharge though, should not happen with a good dedicated charger.

Useful link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_runaway

As general advice, avoid anything called "Fire", anything that claims 3400 mAh capacity, and stick to brand names.
On any lamp you buy from anyone, RTFM
(Read the ---- manual)

The manual should tell you whether the manufacturer recommends protected cells, (he may build electronics into the case ) and any special instructions.

If you have any questions about a specific lamp, email the manufacturer, they are the people to ask.

 

[royfellows]

Here is a useful link that should answer a lot of questions about best Li Ion batteries:

http://www.torchythebatteryboy.com/

 

[TomTom]

I have a high opinion of these cells.

http://www.pluz.co.uk/pluzpower-protected-3400mAh-18650-li-ion-battery-button-top

(fully aware I have most probably jinxed my batts now)

 

[royfellows]

I have a high opinion of these cells.

http://www.pluz.co.uk/pluzpower-protected-3400mAh-18650-li-ion-battery-button-top

(fully aware I have most probably jinxed my batts now)

Yes, but I have just gone to the OEM website and they give in their technical data sheet a max discharge current of 3.4 amps, to it looks like the re-brander has got it wrong at 6.8 amps!
It looked like a fairy tale for a high capacity.

 

[global_s]

I don't believe that there is such a thing as a 3400 mAh 18650 Li Ion battery although such a claim will be made by some sellers.

The Panasonic cells are well regarded on Flashlight forums. I belive they are actually 3400mha.

 

[royfellows]

I don't believe that there is such a thing as a 3400 mAh 18650 Li Ion battery although such a claim will be made by some sellers.

The Panasonic cells are well regarded on Flashlight forums. I belive they are actually 3400mha.

Yes I was wrong, technology moves forward!
Actually 3250 mAh nominal, 3350 mAh typical, from the OEM website.

EDIT
by way, Sanyo and Panasonic are same company now

 

[TomTom]

I have a high opinion of these cells.

http://www.pluz.co.uk/pluzpower-protected-3400mAh-18650-li-ion-battery-button-top

(fully aware I have most probably jinxed my batts now)

Yes, but I have just gone to the OEM website and they give in their technical data sheet a max discharge current of 3.4 amps, to it looks like the re-brander has got it wrong at 6.8 amps!
It looked like a fairy tale for a high capacity.

Where did you find that? The Panasonic NCR18650B datasheet on their website rates them to2C. No wonder theres so much confusion in the market when the manufacturers are giving out mixed info 

http://na.industrial.panasonic.com/products/batteries/rechargeable-batteries/lithium-ion/series/cylindrical-series/CS474/model/NCR18650B

 

[royfellows]

No wonder theres so much confusion in the market when the manufacturers are giving out mixed info 

http://na.industrial.panasonic.com/products/batteries/rechargeable-batteries/lithium-ion/series/cylindrical-series/CS474/model/NCR18650B

I agree the confusion, but you missed out the word "complicated"

http://industrial.panasonic.com/lecs/www-data/pdf/ACA4000/ACA4000PE1.pdf

A thing I aught to mention is that the max output current (possible) will fall as the cell discharges

EDIT
Thanks for the link to the data sheet, I was fishing the web to find this, it answers some of my questions. The 2C is basically a yardstick for purpose of the graph.
Reiterates above comments. I will get some samples of these in and test them for suitability for my purposes. If they support my batcookers battery hit OK they will give longer burn times.
Thanks again

 

[TomTom]

No wonder theres so much confusion in the market when the manufacturers are giving out mixed info 

http://na.industrial.panasonic.com/products/batteries/rechargeable-batteries/lithium-ion/series/cylindrical-series/CS474/model/NCR18650B

I agree the confusion, but you missed out the word "complicated"

http://industrial.panasonic.com/lecs/www-data/pdf/ACA4000/ACA4000PE1.pdf

A thing I aught to mention is that the max output current (possible) will fall as the cell discharges

EDIT
Thanks for the link to the data sheet, I was fishing the web to find this, it answers some of my questions. The 2C is basically a yardstick for purpose of the graph.
Reiterates above comments. I will get some samples of these in and test them for suitability for my purposes. If they support my batcookers battery hit OK they will give longer burn times.
Thanks again

No worries, but it does seem to be an area really lacking in 'offical' info. I'm not sure how much I trust it all as some of the data sheets have dates from several years ago, and varying dates even on the same sheets. Fortunately it's a bit academic for my purposes as at full pelt I'm running at 3A at the LED.

 

[royfellows]

The answer to it all is to test everything in your individual application under all foreseeable conditions.
I can remember years ago wiring a fresh charged Trustfire cell direct to a P7 and only getting 2.2 amps!

Mr Mike who sometimes posts on here though built a boost driver that would run a p7 off a single cell

There is a lot to it all

 

[royfellows]

A few more comments on these battery cells.
I dont think that they would be any good in my 4 cell bat cooker packs but give improved burn times in a 2 cell as used in the new Dragon 1200 which only hits the battery for a max of 1.5 amps.

The data sheet shows a large fall of in capacity at less than 100 charge/discharge cycles which is worth thinking about. Also the Sanyo 18650F cells I am using at 2P2S will support 10 amps max discharge in that configuration, (5 amps per cell)

They still look very good cells and the price of quality cells has dropped dramatically. For the Phaethon still best to read the manual and see what they are recommending.

 

[Duncan S]

I've completed my first two caving trips with my Phaethon light.
It has attracted quite a lot of curious interest and peoples reactions have been interesting.

First a few negative comments:

Firstly - the button.
There is no mechanical movement and I don't understand how it works.
Some people seem to have a real struggle getting a reliable press action, though it works fine for me both with and without gloves, even when caked in mud.

Second - the button action.
So far I have challenged numerous people to turn on the light, and if they manage to stumble on the activation code then to try and turn it off. So far no-one has managed it.
In actual use it seems fine; but I needed to read the manual before I could turn it off for the first time.
One thing is for sure; it isn't going to turn on accidentally

Third - weight.
In the hand, the Phaethon feels heavier than you would expect before picking it up.
Partly this is because the unit is fairly compact, and the brick outhouse construction leads to it feeling very heavy.
However, the weight is comparable to other high end lights and mounted on the helmet is nicely balanced and doesn't feel different compared to the usual suspects.

Now a few positive comments:

Lamp modes.
Mode 2 is an excellent setting for general caving. Compared to the Rude Noras and Scurions around me it actually looked quite bright. This mode is good for over 12 hours usage.
Mode 1 is quite dim in comparison with mode 2, but is still very usable when not actively caving. It's claimed to give 80 hours usage.
I only used the other modes for having a proper look at large caverns and for photography. Mode 5 is full power flood (no spot) and chucks out a really impressive amount of light; it is great for photography.
The super-modes (full power spot and full power both) weren't really needed apart from one photo where the spot was used to illuminate the far end of a long cavern with the flood illuminating the middle distance. The lamp didn't get hot enough during the photo to detect through my gloves, but the light output noticeably warmed my hand!

Beam patterns.
The flood is very wide; usefully wider than the GoPro lens. This is just what I hoped for.
The spot is quite different to the other lights I was caving alongside. It is slightly wider and has very soft edges. The Scurion has hard edges and is very much a bright spot of light; the Phaethon feels more like a hotspot in the flood and is great for illuminating something in a photograph without it looking too contrived. Opinions may vary, but I like it!
Others tell me I looked a bit weird; the Phethon has separate flood and spot units which are identically sized. They tell me it looks a bit like a pair of car headlights.

Helmet mounting.
Phaethon uses a GoPro mount, which allow lots of up and down movement. Much appreciated in crawls and for moving the beam out of the way when chatting.
The helmet mounting kit has a substantial machined bracket for permanently mounting to the helmet.

Battery life.
The charger was saying there was plenty of charge left after each of my trips. Must try harder

Here's a GoPro shot using mode 5 (full power flood). Straight out the camera and not a particularly good image. I was struggling to keep the camera's shadow out of the shot. But it gives a good feel for how much light gets chucked out.

I think I'm going to get on fine with my Phaethon - I'm a happy bunny.
If you have any questions, fire away!

 

[Duncan S]

A couple more trips under my belt and the new light continues to impress.

One thing I got wrong on my earlier post - the weight...
I said it was comparable with other high end lights, but one one trip out I swapped helmets with a Scurion user - strewth that setup is heavy!
The helmet mounted Phaethon is not just a little bit lighter, it's a LOT lighter.

I've manage to put a scratch on the perspex while grovelling around the digs in Hunters' Hole.
Very annoying 

Another thing I've recently bought is a capacity tester - Foxnovo F-4S, lovely bit of kit.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00OCGU5GM/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I ran all 4 18650 batteries that came with the pair of Phaethons and they show just a tad over 3200mAh; lovely...
However, I've just put the Trustfire 18650 batteries (4200 Chinese mAh) I've been using for my photography lighting through testing and the lowest is just 339mAh with the others are only a little better.
Rubbish!
No wonder my dive torch for underwater illumination hasn't lasted long. 
Next up for testing are the 26650 batteries from the other torch; Trustfires labled at 7800 mAh - place your bets....

Looks like I'm going to have to read Roy's earlier posts in a bit more depth and buy some decent batteries....
I'd appreciate some battery recommendations, and if possible a link to purchase.
Many thanks - Duncan

 

[royfellows]

The Trustfire were probably the best of all the "Fire" brands but recently gone down hill further.
The cost of Sanyo 2600 mAh cells has recently fallen, and I think I now know why. Earlier this year Sanyo announced NCR 18650GA 3500 mAh cells that will deliver 10 amps!
There will probably be protected re wraps available from other sellers as these are OEM.

I have just ordered a batch for testing and evaluation.
I shall probably switch to these for 2 cell Dragon packs and possibly 4 cell later.
I can see the day coming where a bat cooker will run on a light two cell pack which will be very nice.

On subject of lamps, front lens is not perspex but polycarbonate and is used universally by most high end lamp manufacturers. Unfortunately, it does scratch and can also become scuffed to the point where it looses its transparency and diffuses the light beam. This is why I stick to glass.
Recently banged by own Lynx against rock and took a chip out of the armoured glass though, so nothing is indestructible.

 

[Duncan S]

Hi Roy,
Thanks for the recommendation.
I'm having trouble finding a supplier.
eBay, Amazon and Google Shopping only seem to offer Sanyo 2600mAh

What about the other big name brands?
Panasonic seems to crop up a lot.

 

[royfellows]

I am buying cells from FastTech Hong Kong, and they are genuine not sexton blakes. Expect long delivery time though, but not as bad as it could be as they are shipping from inside the EU.

Issue is that they are OEM so no protection, I build in my own.

The thing is with these, the actual rating is 3300, typical is 3450, minimum is 3350 and capacity will fall after about 50 to 100 charge/discharge cycles, hence my comment at start of thread.
Regardless of this they are probably the best to come down the pike as yet.

If you see Panasonic with this stated capacity they will be same cells as Panasonic is now part of Sanyo. Any other leading brand with this stated capacity and discharge rate will be a re wrap of these. I caution against using unprotected calls unless your lamp manufacturer says its OK, meaning he has protection inbuilt into his product.