graham said:
Rhys said:
graham said:
TheBitterEnd said:
... the barrack room lawyers of this forum (and their much vaunted citations to things they conveniently can't post on a public forum).
I bet that's aimed at me.
Thing is I quoted what DEFRA have said & I wasn't believed.
So ask them yourself. :icon_321:
I could go and ask DEFRA, but you'd probably argue that I hadn't asked the right questions. I look forward to reading the information that your questions gained.
Rhys
Rhys
The following is a direct quote from an email received from NE. The response from DEFRA came as a pdf so is slightly more annoying to cut and paste, however the wording of the points is identical:
Below is a definitive QA on caves and CRoW ? this set of QAs have also been considered by Defra.
The open access rights under the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 are for ?open air recreation? ? see section 2(1). For that reason, even where land is shown on the CROW maps, the legislation did not in our view create any new public rights to use cave systems beneath or within the mapped land.
? Do Caves qualify as mapped open country as defined under CROW?
? No, except possibly some large open caves on the side of mountains etc. In such cases the experience may remain essentially an open air one, depending on the configuration of the cave.
? How does CROW apply to exploring natural underground voids?
? It does not.
? Do Cavers have a right to explore natural caves within Open Access Land?
? See above. This does not prevent cavers (whether land is CROW-mapped or not) continuing to use particular cave systems, for example where this has been traditional, so long as the landowner continues to tolerate this or has given specific permission to do so.
? What right do Commercial Cave Instructors have to access caves within CROW land with paid for caving training groups?
? None, but see the previous answer.
So in our view these answers are definitive on the subject, though of course in the end interpretation of legislation is a matter for the courts:
I have posted this before but strangely the zealots (not you) will only accept the answers that they wish to hear.
I'm sure I have replied to this before too. However..
The DEFRA/Natural England quote you display above was the original reply Natural England gave to Kdxn (his name on here). They were his questions I believe and the replies were given to him for dissemination to cavers. He passed that email onto the BCA working group on CRoW. I'm sure your FOI request will also have produced the correspondence that I had with Natural England, also too, the correspondence they had with the BCA C&A officer and the CNCC Access Officer. All of this correspondence went to the QC.
The opinion of two DEFRA lawyers also went to the QC. I expect that you have seen this also and it was discussed on an earlier thread.
Clearly from the QC opinion she found that Natural England's argument that caves are not mountain, moor heath or down to be "a bad argument in law".
That their narrow definition of the term 'open air recreation' leads to the conclusion that their construction [of the argument] is "incorrect". Further more their interpretation as meaning 'open to the sky' rather than 'outdoor', "does not accord with the policy of the act, or lead to a rational outcome".
Anyway if you have new material to put in front of the QC please let me have it.