alastairgott
Well-known member
Cap'n Chris said:
They arrive wearing caving gear and know the name of the cave.
Responsible cavers
- Thread starter cap n chris
- Start date
They arrive wearing caving gear and know the name of the cave.
cap n chris
Well-known member
MachoWarriors [tm] might have all-the-gear-and-no-idea, a slab of beers and a stash of doobies, and have the cave location and "name off off the internet".
cap n chris
Well-known member
Pitlamp said:
It's gone beyond that already, I think you'll find. British Caving is trying to raise its game; anything else would be anarchic.
Cap'n Chris said:
What is wrong with a bit of anarchy, particularly when the modern world is increasingly bland, regulated and homogenised? I would argue that a good caver / mine explorer needs a healthy slice of anarchy in their make up, particularly if they want to push the boundaries of their chosen activity.
I consider myself to be a competent and responsible mine explorer and I am confident that my peers would agree. I, and I imagine many others, don't want to be dictated to by some petty minded caving politicians, this is my hobby and I will choose how I do it.
As a responsible mine explorer I take responsibility for my own actions.
Roger W
Well-known member
The OP made me think of how to define a "Responsible Driver" - i.e. one who is fit to be let loose behind the wheel of a motor vehicle on the public roads.
We have a system there by which all drivers are required by the government to be tested in the theory and practice of driving. You must be aged 16 or over to take the test , and according to Wikipedia the pass rate is only about 52% for the theory test and 43% for the practical. All qualified drivers are registered on a government database, enabling the traffic police to immediately identify those who are unqualified to drive.
As everyone knows, this means that only careful and courteous drivers can be found on our roads. They all know better than to exceed the speed limits, or cut up or tailgate other drivers.
Following up this train of thought, I looked up "bad driving" on the Internet and found a Huffington Post article which said this, among other things:
"The reason for all this [bad driving] is that people are jerks and they are especially, doubly jerks when they get behind the wheel.
"They are also jerks when they are not driving. People are jerks when they are prevented from doing what they want, when they want. It used to be that only a two year old had a hissy fit when they were stymied in any way, now it is adults...
"The most common response is for them to start screaming about their rights. 'I can do what I want!' they will shout...
"I would call that a symptom of a mental illness, some sort of sociopathy, but if everyone is like that it is not an illness, it is normal.
I am aware that this feeling is a function of age and that really old people are known for this attitude. The reason for that is not that old people are crotchety, it is that they have had the opportunity to witness other people over a long period of time and have come to the inescapable conclusion that the human race is one giant flaming ass."
(http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/nick-abbot/the-human-race-has-crossed-the-line_b_7306902.html)
The comments there are the writer of the article's own opinion - but do you think any of this could apply in any way to the caving scenario?
We have a system there by which all drivers are required by the government to be tested in the theory and practice of driving. You must be aged 16 or over to take the test , and according to Wikipedia the pass rate is only about 52% for the theory test and 43% for the practical. All qualified drivers are registered on a government database, enabling the traffic police to immediately identify those who are unqualified to drive.
As everyone knows, this means that only careful and courteous drivers can be found on our roads. They all know better than to exceed the speed limits, or cut up or tailgate other drivers.
Following up this train of thought, I looked up "bad driving" on the Internet and found a Huffington Post article which said this, among other things:
"The reason for all this [bad driving] is that people are jerks and they are especially, doubly jerks when they get behind the wheel.
"They are also jerks when they are not driving. People are jerks when they are prevented from doing what they want, when they want. It used to be that only a two year old had a hissy fit when they were stymied in any way, now it is adults...
"The most common response is for them to start screaming about their rights. 'I can do what I want!' they will shout...
"I would call that a symptom of a mental illness, some sort of sociopathy, but if everyone is like that it is not an illness, it is normal.
I am aware that this feeling is a function of age and that really old people are known for this attitude. The reason for that is not that old people are crotchety, it is that they have had the opportunity to witness other people over a long period of time and have come to the inescapable conclusion that the human race is one giant flaming ass."
(http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/nick-abbot/the-human-race-has-crossed-the-line_b_7306902.html)
The comments there are the writer of the article's own opinion - but do you think any of this could apply in any way to the caving scenario?
Alex
Well-known member
My question is with CRoW why would the landowners want/need to consult this 'database'. They don't do that for every walker that crosses their land. "Are you a responsible walker sir, do you know how to put one leg infront of the other?" Even without CRoW why would they care anyway? All they want from us is normally make sure the cave is covered up to prevent sheep falling down, gates closed in the fields and no litter left on the ground. What you do underground, they could not care less, unless its a cave that feeds their water supply.
I have never been asked, what are you doing underground, where in the cave will you be going or anything like that. Normally it goes, can I go down such and such a cave and the land owner says sure, do you know the way and if you don't the land owner will normally tell you.
I have never been asked, what are you doing underground, where in the cave will you be going or anything like that. Normally it goes, can I go down such and such a cave and the land owner says sure, do you know the way and if you don't the land owner will normally tell you.
alastairgott
Well-known member
I was taken on a trip into a newly reopened mine 2-3 years ago, as a caver I thought I was reasonably responsible, but the person taking me on the trip was pointing out the wood for the mine track. I would never have noticed it and probably destroyed it in seconds.
How can anyone be a responsible caver without adequate knowledge of the system?
Take another example in mid wales, the local groups are thinking of gating (& locking) the entrance because they use it for instruction. the only reason they are thinking of doing this is because there are people digging out the stacks of deads into the "safe passageways" through the mine, thereby making it difficult to lead groups safely round. (the thought is that the people doing this are 'gem hunters').
How can anyone be a responsible caver without adequate knowledge of the system?
Take another example in mid wales, the local groups are thinking of gating (& locking) the entrance because they use it for instruction. the only reason they are thinking of doing this is because there are people digging out the stacks of deads into the "safe passageways" through the mine, thereby making it difficult to lead groups safely round. (the thought is that the people doing this are 'gem hunters').
Brains
Well-known member
I think it more important to define a Responsible Politician.
Another way of dealing with all these related threads would be to ban all non Mendip cavers from visiting Mendip, and vice versa. The forum could be arranged so as you register as one or the other, and then you only see the posts relevant to your patch.
"Mendip - Local Caves for local people" could be the new motto...
In a recipricol arrangement, any mendip caver wishing go off the patch should have to apply (in writing on headed notepaper and countersigned by all great grandparents), for a regional guide who would - at a reasonable expense - first assess them and them take them to selected venues, eg only locked and gated and on arable farm land. They would then have to weighed before and after to ensure no undue secretion have been left in the cave, and the oversuits should be cleaned before use to prevent cross contamination. As has been pointed out licensing doesnt guarentee good behaviour so holders of CIC and LCMLA would also be subject to this protocol.
Another way of dealing with all these related threads would be to ban all non Mendip cavers from visiting Mendip, and vice versa. The forum could be arranged so as you register as one or the other, and then you only see the posts relevant to your patch.
"Mendip - Local Caves for local people" could be the new motto...
In a recipricol arrangement, any mendip caver wishing go off the patch should have to apply (in writing on headed notepaper and countersigned by all great grandparents), for a regional guide who would - at a reasonable expense - first assess them and them take them to selected venues, eg only locked and gated and on arable farm land. They would then have to weighed before and after to ensure no undue secretion have been left in the cave, and the oversuits should be cleaned before use to prevent cross contamination. As has been pointed out licensing doesnt guarentee good behaviour so holders of CIC and LCMLA would also be subject to this protocol.
Peter Burgess
New member
It would be nice to come back to the original request, stop looking for hidden messages or agenda, and consider this:Cap'n Chris said:
Let's assume that should it come to pass, however regretfully, that some unavoidable process requires you to demonstrate that you are a responsible caver Bearing in mind that this would be to someone who doesn't know you and is not going to spend time with you to find out, what would be required to show said person the "evidence" required, and indeed, is it even possible to have a scheme with any degree of reliability at all. Taking the MOT as an example, an MOT does not demonstrate roadworthiness, only that at the time the test was taken, your car met certain standards and was highly likely to be roadworthy. Your brakes might develop a fault on the way back home on the same day.
Clive G
Member
Everyone knows what the word 'responsible' means: it's acting more responsibly than irresponsibly, but this doesn't mean that 'acting irresponsibly' makes a person not responsible - for who are you to judge whether someone else is acting responsibly or irresponsibly? You only know the true answer to your own actions.
For example, would you describe the following caver, setting out to do some rock climbing underground, as being 'responsible' or 'irresponsible':
"he was only wearing a pair of cheap Wellingtons. His harness had to be seen to be believed ? it was a very rudimentary, well-travelled, flimsy SRT harness. And he had the meagrest supply of climbing aids . . ."
For example, would you describe the following caver, setting out to do some rock climbing underground, as being 'responsible' or 'irresponsible':
"he was only wearing a pair of cheap Wellingtons. His harness had to be seen to be believed ? it was a very rudimentary, well-travelled, flimsy SRT harness. And he had the meagrest supply of climbing aids . . ."
Peter Burgess
New member
I suppose the main priority one looks for is going to depend on who it is that wants to know. If I was a cave owner and my main priority was to protect the cave, but at the same time was happy for people to visit it, I would want to know that the visitors were not going to spoil anything, so I would want to know if they had demonstrated a basic understanding of good conservation practice. Others might want to know that the activities of visitors were not going to annoy neighbours, or might have a concern for the safety of the visitors and want to be happy that they could look after themselves.
ah147
New member
To draw an analogy to cave diving...
You get voted in to your "local club" as a trainee.
After a period of time, you take some tests with your "club", submit a record of your experience and ask if you can become qualified. If they all generally think you're half decent, they vote you up to qualified. If you like, you can submit a request for a little card that says you're qualified.
Now caving, you join your local club as a prospective member. You wait a bit, then ask to be made a full member. Then everybody automatically votes you to full member.
Maybe there is already a system in place in caving to "recognise" responsibly cavers, but people just don't utilise it properly?
You get voted in to your "local club" as a trainee.
After a period of time, you take some tests with your "club", submit a record of your experience and ask if you can become qualified. If they all generally think you're half decent, they vote you up to qualified. If you like, you can submit a request for a little card that says you're qualified.
Now caving, you join your local club as a prospective member. You wait a bit, then ask to be made a full member. Then everybody automatically votes you to full member.
Maybe there is already a system in place in caving to "recognise" responsibly cavers, but people just don't utilise it properly?
Madness
New member
ah147 said:
Yes I did the Cave Investigation Course years ago and my mate Chris audited me doing it
Whether it was an external audit is debatable though as I was in a cave at the time, so it could be an internal audit.
Oh flip, we're back to the 'is a cave in or out' debate again!
