Rigging a Y-Hang

[Alex]

It takes forever but I use a double fisherman's isolated with an alpine for rope joins. The trickiest bit is tying the alpine in the right place, its a right faff but it is the best knot to use I think. The alpine prevents the double fisherman's from being loaded too much so its possible to undo afterwards and also provides somewhere to clip into. If at all possible, however I try to avoid all the faff I try to join the ropes at a re-belay point by just trying 2 figure of 8s into each other through the anchor and this is of course far easier to pass.

As for Y-hangs, I tend to use bunny ears my self too, but am trying to get in the habit of using Fusion knots (though they do use more rope). If it's a long traverse though I tend to do my Y-hang with just another alpine, half the time thought this because I have not noticed I was reaching the end of the traverse at the last anchor. Its also a good knot to use if you think you might be running short of rope.

 

[Fulk]

Sorry, Alex, you've lost me in

It takes forever but I use a double fisherman's isolated with an alpine for rope joins.

By Alpine do you mean Alpine Butterfly? If so, how do you tie (or should I say 'bend'?) two ropes together with it?

I have seen a reef knot in the middle, as it were, of a double fisherman's advocated for tying ropes together ? is it something like that that you have in mind?

 

[Stu]

Sorry, Alex, you've lost me in

It takes forever but I use a double fisherman's isolated with an alpine for rope joins.

By Alpine do you mean Alpine Butterfly? If so, how do you tie (or should I say 'bend'?) two ropes together with it?

I have seen a reef knot in the middle, as it were, of a double fisherman's advocated for tying ropes together ? is it something like that that you have in mind?

Google Alpine Butterfly bend - plenty of images.

 

[Alex]

Google Alpine Butterfly bend - plenty of images.

No it's not what I mean, I simply mean, tie a double fisherman's as normal and then incorporate the double fisherman's knot into a loop of an alpine. I see no images for this but I am sure it is in alpine caving somewhere... I will have to check when I get home.

 

[Stu]

Google Alpine Butterfly bend - plenty of images.

No it's not what I mean, I simply mean, tie a double fisherman's as normal and then incorporate the double fisherman's knot into a loop of an alpine. I see no images for this but I am sure it is in alpine caving somewhere... I will have to check when I get home.

Two options exist then - tie Double Fisheman's then tie an AB with the DF sitting on the loop. Or tie AB with long tails then tie DF. Both result in the same thing.

Fulk asked about retying an Alpine Butterfly which the images show.

 

[ALEXW]

 

[Fulk]

Thanks for clarifying that, Alex and ALEX

 

[Alex]

Yep that's the one, well almost

 

[Mark Wright]

The method of joining rope described by Alex and the variation shown in the picture is common in the rope access industry. Or at least training in the rope access industry. It wouldn't be considered good practice to have rope joining knots in an industrial environment due to the very complicated rescue issues that knots can cause.

Having said that I've just received a catalogue from a UK equipment manufacturer and the picture on the front cover is a window cleaner just abseiling down to a Double Fisherman's knot in one of his ropes on a very tall building in Asia. There would usually be a Fig 8 or Fig 9 loop knot to accompany it for clipping into as you pass the obstruction but not in this case. Another issue to consider, particularly on very tall buildings, is the amount of rope stretch there would be on the safety line in the event of a working line failure. If the building on the photograph is what I think it is then if there were a working line failure when the window cleaner was 25m from the floor, he would probably hit the floor. I digress...

In industry, one of the most common methods of isolating a damaged section of rope is with an Alpine Butterfly so it is technically possible to join 2 ropes with an Alpine Butterfly. You would treat the two ends as being the loop and then tie in the normal way. By normal I mean the way I normally teach it which is by taking a bight and putting two twists in it. Its not so easy if you use the mountaineering method of wrapping three loops around your hand. Like the stories in the report posted by AL, its unlikely people would be happy with joining ropes with just an Alpine Butterfly, the next step would be adding an Overhand knot behind the Alpine.

Getting back to 'Y' hangs.

As I said before, I think simple is usually best and being able to tie a Bunny knot, Alpine Butterfly, Fig 8 (including rethreading) and a Fig 9 will cover all the rigging you are ever likely to do. If, in addition to the above, you can tie a double or triple twisted Scaffold knot on the end of your Cow's tail you would pass the knot tying element of an IRATA Level 1 course. You would get a Exam Discrepancy if you tied a Cavers Butterfly instead of an Alpine and you couldn't rectify the mistake. The Alpine Butterfly is the only industry accepted Mid Rope knot with all the others (above) being End Of Rope knots.

I do like to see good rigging in caves. Most people first learn about rigging simply by following others and if others are rigging well then they will learn good rigging. If they follow poor rigging then they will learn poor rigging.

Good rigging for me is not just about appropriate knots for the situation, properly dressed and set (I am a bit of a stickler on that but not quite a nazi I hope), but its also about ensuring consideration has been given to people of all abilities and sizes negotiating the obstacles, particularly when they are returning up the ropes and having to get off at the top with heavy bags. We encountered that problem during many of the recent Berger trips.

Mark

 

[Chocolate fireguard]

I agree with all of the stuff on Y-hangs. Especially about rigging to help people on the way back out. A couple of well-sited Alpine Butterflies to clip into can avoid turning getting off a pitch head into an epic struggle.

But it does seem a shame to abandon that most elegantly simple knot, the Bowline, just because the BMC have realised that any gap between the knot and the required safety can be clipped into by mistake.
I often use one to tie into the first bolt of a traverse and lock the tail of the rope to the live rope with a Barrel Knot pushed up tight against the Bowline (some of us got there well before the BMC).
Surely a knot that has been used by sailors for centuries deserves some respect.

 

[Alex]

I still use bowline for my initial knot especially if its a natural, far easier. I too lock it off with a barrel. Its bowline on the bight I think the problem lies with.

 

[Fulk]

I often used a bowline; I've just recently come across something called a 'Lee's locked bowline' that looks quite good, but I  haven't tried it out in earnest yet.

 

[Bob Mehew]

Re Bowline, ABoK 1010 at p186 reports contradictory statements on the stability of the Bowline and comments '...no knot is safe that is not properly drawn up...'.  The BMC reports at least one apparent failure of the Bowline https://www.thebmc.co.uk/check-that-bowline due it appears, to a failure to properly tie the Bowline.  The fact that some people have had the Bowline fail on them, albeit perhaps because they did not tie it properly, suggests to me that it is worth using a backup knot on the just in case principle.         

 

[potholer]

Going back to the OP, I'm not sure how the method described is going to be meaningfully quicker than just tying an Alpine Butterfly in the first place.

Unless the hang position is especially 'sensitive', if measurement is done properly for the incoming rope and loop, and the right amount extra added for the knot before tying, most of the time it should be possible to tie an Alpine that doesn't need adjustment as long as the knot-tying method doesn't let things drift from where they should be.

And when adjustment is needed, or where the location means it's harder to measure properly (like very wide hangs) I'd have thought it was better to have everything in place and be able to just adjust the knot, rather than having to either hold the loop end next to the hanger while trying to work out where things should be, or to have to attach/unattach/reattach the loop to the hanger.