Rock bashing in Overton Mine

[zippy]

I've thought long and hard as to whether to make this post - I'm not into flaming people in public, but I felt this was something the caving community should be aware of:

We were recently invited on a trip down Overton Mine, Derbyshire - and were duly grateful for the invite.  We arrived to find not only a bunch of people who we know (good, competent, conservation minded cavers/mine explorers), but also several that we didn't know.  As I was kitting up, one of the "strangers" asked me if I was into "mineral collecting" too.  I voiced my opinion (which is on the lines of "NO - I believe minerals, pretties, artefacts, etc in caves and mines should be left for other people to enjoy you selfish Ba5t......")     

It soon became apparent that the most of the "unkown" persons were armed with hammers, chisels, rucksacks, etc and had every intent on making a concerted effort to "collect minerals" on a fairly serious scale.        Furthermore, they had clearly been told that there was - and I quote - "plenty to have a go at down there".

This was not "my" trip, and I was not in a position to stop the goings on, so rather than be associated with it I de-kitted and left, voicing my objections to some of the people who had invited us along - all bar one of whom, I hasten to add, were also pretty horrified at the goings on.

I do NOT wish to drop the people who invited us on the trip into the sh1t, as I gather there are some pretty pi55ed off people and there is now some serious dialogue going on about this.  However, what I would say, is that if you're approached by any members of "The Russell Society" (I'm not going to do them the favour of posting their URL here) you may choose to tell them exactly where to go...  contrary to what they preach on their website, their activities are against all contemporary conservation guidelines.  People like this should not be allowed down caves/ancient mines.

Z.

 

[paul]

Well said. And well done on not continuing with them on the trip.

 

[zomjon]

Sounds like any cavers, worst nightmare. Only been down the place the once, with Waggie from the Orpheus years ago, but must have been quite unobservant as don't remember any startling mineral deposits - hopefully they ended up empty handed!

 

[martinb]

I think PDMHS have an interest in that mine - I'll pass this along to one of their members for consideration.

Well done for standing up for your principles. 

 

[Bob Smith]

Sounds like a Russel society visit I had the misfortune to assist with in Cornwall, picture the scene:

After following one party we arrive at a spot with some particularly atttractive stained mineralisation.

Me " if you look carefully into this crack you can see some copper stained crystal of about 6" long"
group member " where? "
Me "up near the back, it's quite visible"
G M " there isn't much there at all...."

 

[Fulk]

Well, playing Devil's Advocate ? since the place is a mine anyway, ? i.e. it has been dug out by people in search of mineral wealth ? what's the big deal if some latter-day 'miner' takes a bit more spoil?

 

[Blakethwaite]

Well, playing Devil's Advocate ? since the place is a mine anyway, ? i.e. it has been dug out by people in search of mineral wealth ? what's the big deal if some latter-day 'miner' takes a bit more spoil?

Indeed.
You could also ask what harm is there in chopping off a stal to place in your garden to between your favourite gnomes? Another will form in its place over the passage of time.

After all, its not as if the people who are interested in the history of mines and how they worked might want to see them as they were left by the miners.

 

[Fulk]

Bollocks. I'd make a big division between natural caves that I love, and mines that are, after all, driven by people in search of wealth (or needy people in search of sustenance beholden to their "superiors" in search of wealth). I would never, ever, condone f*****g up caves, but really, modern-day sample hunters are pretty much on a par with the guys who made the mines in the first place.

 

[Blakethwaite]

Bollocks. I'd make a big division between natural caves that I love, and mines that are, after all, driven by people in search of wealth (or needy people in search of sustenance beholden to their "superiors" in search of wealth). I would never, ever, condone f*****g up caves, but really, modern-day sample hunters are pretty much on a par with the guys who made the mines in the first place.

Bollocks in return.
If mines to you aren't anything more than places to go and knock lumps out of the wall for your own gain then may I suggest (in the politest of terms) that you keep the f*** out of them.

 

[Fulk]

OK, Blakethwaite, sorry if I've upset you, but I did say I was playing Devil's Advocate.

 

[zippy]

I would also add that, in the Peak District in particular, many (possibly most?) of the natural cave systems have at some point in time been intersected by / have insersected mines...  JH, Speedwell, Oxlow, Maskhill, etc, etc....  would that make it OK to hack the cr@p out of Peak Cavern?  I think not.

Z.

 

[Rhys]

Fulk has raised a legitimate question. Comparing minerals in a mine to a stal in a cave doesn't really work to answer the question though. The mine may be better compared to a historic monument such as a castle, or Roman ruins or somesuch. They were both created by man, both crumbling and tumbling down. However, if everyone hacks a bit of stone off a castle or Roman ruins, eventually there'll be none left for anyone to see. Also, it might just be that the particular stone or mineral sample gives a clue and helps explains part of the history (or geology) of the site; which may or may not yet have been appreciated. Once gone, it's gone.

Now, be nice to each other!

 

[Bob Smith]

Bollocks. I'd make a big division between natural caves that I love, and mines that are, after all, driven by people in search of wealth (or needy people in search of sustenance beholden to their "superiors" in search of wealth). I would never, ever, condone f*****g up caves, but really, modern-day sample hunters are pretty much on a par with the guys who made the mines in the first place.

I can't believe that you could turn this into some socioeconomic class struggle!? Having been "one of those that made the mines in the first place" I'd disagree with you. but that might be just me.

My point is thus, on a site maintained to educate others, to ruthlessly knock lumps off is just plain selfish. dig it out from the spoil heaps, like I do. you'd be surprised what you might find.

http://priceofdiamonds.org/2007/01/02/diamond-fossicking

 

[Blakethwaite]

Apologies Fulk, my choice of words was uncalled for. Rhys has hit the nail on its head though.

An abandoned mine is if you'll forgive the clich? a time capsule from the period  it was worked. Not only do you have the obvious artifacts lying around (hopefully) but more permanently the changes in mining practices over the centuries are demonstrated in the rock. Somebody going at say an ancient hand picked working with a drill & caps would obviously have a catastrophic effect upon the mine.

The most surprising thing about Zippy's post is that a supposedly legit semi-academic society like the Russell Society would sanction its members turning up mob handed like that and wantonly letting loose. What caving or mining club doesn't have a conservation policy this day and age?

 

[zippy]

The most surprising thing about Zippy's post is that a supposedly legit semi-academic society like the Russell Society would sanction its members turning up mob handed like that and wantonly letting loose.

And this was the main reason for my posting.  If you read the blurb on their website they are into "responsible" mineral collecting.  BO11OX are they.  They're just a bunch of selfish robbing ba5stard (in my extremely humble opinion) 

 

[Fulk]

Apologies all round, and, just for the record, I do occasionally visit mines and I don't rob them of anything!

 

[Bob Smith]

I'm not sure I'd call the Russell society semi-legit. All the members I've met seem to turn up to a site "tool up". They know they are doing wrong by the fact they conceal their tools before the trip.

 

[Blakethwaite]

Indeed though they advertise themselves otherwise:

"The Russell Society is a society of amateur and professional mineralogists which encourages the study, recording and conservation of mineralogical sites and material."

 

[Peter Burgess]

Oh, am I happy that the Surrey mines have nothing in them that would remotely interest them!

Anybody who thinks old mines are little more than "man-made caves" should leave the study and exploration of them to those who do appreciate them.

 

[zippy]