rope - advice please
- Thread starter kp64zl
- Start date
cap n chris
Well-known member
It's the document which is inconsistent and at odds with itself. Touche. 
pwhole
Well-known member
I'm surprised there haven't been more developments in rope protectors lately, especially with the improved abrasion resistance of many new fabrics. A Kevlar/leather cushion would be very nice for sharp parapet edges, especially where canvas may even struggle, as long as you can keep it in position and prevent the rope from sliding off it, if sideways movement becomes an issue. A semi-rigid, slightly curved 'saddle' shape might work. An enterprising outfit could knock those out quite cheaply, I would imagine.
After experiencing some hair-raising edges at work myself now, especially 1930's pebbledashed concrete (eek), I'm starting to come down more on wire strops for the edge if possible, and rig the ropes from those, though it can end up with being a bit low on the return if you have to go back up. I had to use my little Beast bag as a rope-protector on one of those edges in London, and it scraped a hole through it
Has anyone tried either of the Petzl mechanical options?
http://www.petzl.com/en/pro/verticality/static-ropes/rope-protectors
After experiencing some hair-raising edges at work myself now, especially 1930's pebbledashed concrete (eek), I'm starting to come down more on wire strops for the edge if possible, and rig the ropes from those, though it can end up with being a bit low on the return if you have to go back up. I had to use my little Beast bag as a rope-protector on one of those edges in London, and it scraped a hole through it
Has anyone tried either of the Petzl mechanical options?
http://www.petzl.com/en/pro/verticality/static-ropes/rope-protectors
cavermark
New member
The roll modules are good, but can take more time to rig so they stay in the right place (the rope can flip off the caterpillar type if unweighted) - on some jobs time is tight. Persuading access companies to buy them is the main problem...
Using new materials like kevlar needs some good research - it's to do with the relative abrasion and friction between the two materials, as well as the radius the rope goes through....
Using new materials like kevlar needs some good research - it's to do with the relative abrasion and friction between the two materials, as well as the radius the rope goes through....
paul
Moderator
pwhole said:
I've tried the Petzl "Set Caterpaillar" but on a sharp edge, the edge pokes between the rollers and comes in contact with the rope. These: http://www.rescueresponse.com/store/cmcultraedgepads_2.html seem to work better on sharpe edges (and are a lot cheaper).
Dang egg crate pads (what we call any style like those CMC ones) are expensive!
These are the ones we use the most and work great for almost anything: http://onrope1.com/store/index.php?p=product&id=646&parent=17 they are heavy duty and relatively cheap (few length options) they are heavy duty duck cloth (cotton, so you don't get nylon on nylon rubbing), with a thick PVC center. I don't think I've ever seen one worn through. There are grommits on all four corners so it can be anchored as well as you want to.
The edge rollers like what we used at El Cap (Granite 2650-ft single rope rappel and climb, hung on the edge for a week, about 40 rappels and 30 climbs during that week) http://onrope1.com/store/index.php?p=product&id=314&parent=17 but if you have some mechanical/manufacture ability edge rollers are actually pretty easy to make for cheaper than you can buy them. Unlike egg crates or flat pads it won't fall off the edges.
this is a cheaper egg crate with edge catches (which...kinda help) but it does attach on all four corners to help stabalize it on an edge from flopping around http://onrope1.com/store/index.php?p=product&id=981&parent=17
Here's the maxwear I was recommending (again, take into account your descent device, it is MAX wear, stiff as a cable people call it!) it is on sale right now http://onrope1.com/store/index.php?p=product&id=7&parent=16
Since I know 9mm is more happy with folk there, here is a PMI 9mm select the "max wear" sheeth option for maximum abrasion resistance or if you need the flex for your stops/bobbins the ezbend is more flexible as it sounds (but not as ruggid) http://onrope1.com/store/index.php?p=product&id=711&parent=16
These are the ones we use the most and work great for almost anything: http://onrope1.com/store/index.php?p=product&id=646&parent=17 they are heavy duty and relatively cheap (few length options) they are heavy duty duck cloth (cotton, so you don't get nylon on nylon rubbing), with a thick PVC center. I don't think I've ever seen one worn through. There are grommits on all four corners so it can be anchored as well as you want to.
The edge rollers like what we used at El Cap (Granite 2650-ft single rope rappel and climb, hung on the edge for a week, about 40 rappels and 30 climbs during that week) http://onrope1.com/store/index.php?p=product&id=314&parent=17 but if you have some mechanical/manufacture ability edge rollers are actually pretty easy to make for cheaper than you can buy them. Unlike egg crates or flat pads it won't fall off the edges.
this is a cheaper egg crate with edge catches (which...kinda help) but it does attach on all four corners to help stabalize it on an edge from flopping around http://onrope1.com/store/index.php?p=product&id=981&parent=17
Here's the maxwear I was recommending (again, take into account your descent device, it is MAX wear, stiff as a cable people call it!) it is on sale right now http://onrope1.com/store/index.php?p=product&id=7&parent=16
Since I know 9mm is more happy with folk there, here is a PMI 9mm select the "max wear" sheeth option for maximum abrasion resistance or if you need the flex for your stops/bobbins the ezbend is more flexible as it sounds (but not as ruggid) http://onrope1.com/store/index.php?p=product&id=711&parent=16
thanks for all this really helpful advice.
We will buy a European-style rope - as this will have more uses for us climbers once this particular trip is done.
QUESTION..would you go for a 10.5mm or 11mm diameter rope?
are there any *disadvantages* of going for the 11mm rope other than weight?
We will buy a European-style rope - as this will have more uses for us climbers once this particular trip is done.
QUESTION..would you go for a 10.5mm or 11mm diameter rope?
are there any *disadvantages* of going for the 11mm rope other than weight?
cap n chris
Well-known member
Volume and "knotability"/pliancy.
glyders said:
Second these considerations. I don't know what the cliff face looks like but if you see the el cap vid I posted at the end you can see how we had it set up on a tensioning anchor system away from the face. This does mean there is a slight angle on rappel at the end but it keeps the rope from being blown around, abrading on the rock or even worse for our case was loosing it around the face of the nose. Keep in mind stretch factor if you do such a bottom anchor system that the wind will still load it effectively "adding weight" to your rappel. The more weight under you the more friction on your device so the slower you rappel. You may want to let people rappel freely and then tension the anchor when not in use. However because of the wind loading make sure you use friction not toothed ascenders or such to anchor or you'll damage your rope when the wind loads and pulls on that. We used a Munter hitch (I think you call Italian hitch) on the rope for controlled untensioning so someone could get on to rappel without the wind grabbing the rope. To secure in place under tension the rope still left on the Munter and we used a Blake's hitch to hold it. For our setup a Blake's worked better than a Prussic but it's the same idea. This kept the rope from waving on the rock, kept it from being lost in the wind, and so it worked well. Also as a side effect the way physics works is if the rope is on an angle you will tend to look in said direction. Ex: if the rope is angled like / you would be facing left ("outward"). So when ya anchor the bottom to keep the wind from stealing it, if you do it a bit away from the face (as naturally would occur) you get to generally face outward the whole rappel and see the view rather than stare at the rock
Speaking from my experience in long rope, I highly recommend tht once you decide on what rope you are using, that you get a shorter length for your practice tower or whatever straight drop you train on. Add to the bottom of the short but same rope the weight of the full rope. (I typically use a 5gal bucket and fill with rock or water to the right weight and attach it to the bottom of the rope via a Prussic so I can slide it off when I get to the bottom of the rappel) this allows you the ability to train with the exact rope and the exact weight you'll experience on the cliff and work out any bugs in your technique. If you know this cliff has wind blowing across it, then practice for "worst case scenario", a windy day that loads the rope in a manner it is "adding weight". A safe "worst case scenario" number is double the weight. Ex: the rope is 30 pounds. You get a short piece that is 5 pounds. Add 25 pounds to the end of the rope for practice (25+5=30) Then put a total of 55lbs on it (55+5=60). Maybe this is playing it overly safe with the practice BUT for our team it's our route with newbies on long rope and it never fails. It weeds out issues early on and makes it so once on the cliff nothing is surprising. All mistakes and learning in control practice so it's a safe day outside
also our team has a rule to always rappel with climbing gear. If something did happen and you can't get down, being able to change over under the weighted load can literally be a lifesaver. Anyway. This approach to training is pretty tried and true in the long rope world here. We even had a Brit join us for bridge day (876ft free rappel) October 2013. Its def not hard if you are used to rappelling but it's nice to know for sure it will work before the effort to do it for real is made Thanks for all the advice. I've ordered 120 metres of Edelrid Superstatic 10.5mm.
We're planning to use a Petzl Simple for the big long drops backed up with a prussik ? a braking krab
e.g. the 100m descent into this:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-72FLGzjvgXw/UEMVQKmyvDI/AAAAAAAAAI4/1qXngCBMYys/s1600/From+Chris+-+1.jpg
does that seem sensible??
We're planning to use a Petzl Simple for the big long drops backed up with a prussik ? a braking krab
e.g. the 100m descent into this:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-72FLGzjvgXw/UEMVQKmyvDI/AAAAAAAAAI4/1qXngCBMYys/s1600/From+Chris+-+1.jpg
does that seem sensible??
Bob Mehew
Well-known member
Certainly not Nikwax! You should have been sent a copy of the instructions with your rope. I see Edelrid's web site is not providing them at the moment. My copy from 2012 states "Cleaning: Clean soiled products in luke-warm water (if necessary, use pH neutral soap). Rinse well. Dry at room temperature, never use a tumble drier or dry close to radiators!"kp64zl said:
The act of an initial pre use wash is to shrink it and to get rid of the manufacturing oils which make the rope slippery for abseiling. Expected shrinkage is around 10% but some people claim it does continue with further wet dry cycles. (I have not tired to quantify it.) Given your intended use, I am not sure you need to wash it. But I suspect you may wish to wash it afterwards to remove salt, bird droppings and so on.
My preferred method is to use my washing machine. I push it twice through a 3 rinse cycle using cold water with no detergent or fabric softener. Depending upon rope length either put it in a pillow case or as I prefer to do, daisy chain the rope (see http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-wash-your-climbing-rope-using-washing-machi/step1/Daisy-Chain-the-rope/). I don't spin it as this will quickly bugger your washing machine. I then let it drip dry on the line before drying it in my garage over a few days. Keep it away from steel, preferably dry it on plastic or non corroding materials like wood or ali.
One minor point is having washed it, you will have a hard job to get the rope coiled so that you can easily run it back out direct from the coil. Most cavers feed their untangled rope into a rope / personnel bag; it then seems to miraculously come back out without snagging.
Some people believe that this process does not get all the oil out and go for a long soak (minimum 2 hour), followed by pulling the rope several times through a pulley so as to squeeze the oil out.
Classic caver rope washing is to get rid of surface mud which is quite a different problem (see http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=7622.0;all for examples).
PS - if you did not get the manual, then did you get the manufacturing date? I once got sold some 5 year old rope! It should be on a manufacturer's 'end band'. If not, then you will have to extract some of the marker tape within the rope to find the date. It should appear within 0.25m but the requirement is for repeats to be at least once every meter.
Chocolate fireguard
Active member
Re washing. Some years ago I looked after the equipment for a caving club and every year or so had 100 or 200m of new rope to sort out.
One year I had 200m to wash and cut to length so after it was off the drum I soaked it in the bath overnight, changed the water, gave it another few hours, dried it and cut it to length. I would probably then have put the lengths through a cold machine wash with no detergent, because that`s what I usually did.
The first use for one of the lengths was Rowten entrance pitch and the guy rigging it came back out after a couple of minutes saying he wasn`t amused and the rope was far too fast, wasn`t safe and he was going off to do Aquamole (which had fixed ropes on the entrance pitch). A couple of people with old Stops went with him.
I was using a Caving Supplies rack and I set off down. I had desperate trouble controlling things and locking off because the rope was very slick. When we got out we noticed that a puddle of water on the surface that the rope had been lying over was milky in colour where rain had washed something out of the rope. I thought it was some sort of soluble oil as it looked like the coolant used on lathes etc.
Those ropes needed several passes through the washing machine (with detergent) before they were safe to use. That was the only time it has happened and I assume the problem was peculiar to the batch of rope our 200m came from.
So kp64zl, whatever you decide to do to your rope it might be a good idea to hang the end from a tree or similar and check that your descenders are controllable before you commit yourselves to the 100m.
One year I had 200m to wash and cut to length so after it was off the drum I soaked it in the bath overnight, changed the water, gave it another few hours, dried it and cut it to length. I would probably then have put the lengths through a cold machine wash with no detergent, because that`s what I usually did.
The first use for one of the lengths was Rowten entrance pitch and the guy rigging it came back out after a couple of minutes saying he wasn`t amused and the rope was far too fast, wasn`t safe and he was going off to do Aquamole (which had fixed ropes on the entrance pitch). A couple of people with old Stops went with him.
I was using a Caving Supplies rack and I set off down. I had desperate trouble controlling things and locking off because the rope was very slick. When we got out we noticed that a puddle of water on the surface that the rope had been lying over was milky in colour where rain had washed something out of the rope. I thought it was some sort of soluble oil as it looked like the coolant used on lathes etc.
Those ropes needed several passes through the washing machine (with detergent) before they were safe to use. That was the only time it has happened and I assume the problem was peculiar to the batch of rope our 200m came from.
So kp64zl, whatever you decide to do to your rope it might be a good idea to hang the end from a tree or similar and check that your descenders are controllable before you commit yourselves to the 100m.
No manual supplied, but it came straight from the manufacturer (none in stock at the supplier I used so they ordered it from Edelrid) and it was on the original reel with a chargen-Nr (I presume this is German for serial no or similar) of S 2014 0145 003 DR. I suspect it is pretty new. Also, I think Safety Super II has not been around for that long, it's the replacement for the superstatic.
