Rope Walking

[Amy]

People say that the weakness of American ropewalkers is crossing rebelays. But as Amy said, I think you can get pretty quick with rebelays in any of these systems if you practice.

I think the real weakness of American ropewalkers is what you do in between pitches. You couldn't really wear a full double-bungee rig all the way through an awkward cave. Everything would be flapping around and tangling, and then you also have a metal plate across your chest.

So I suspect that double-bungee ropewalkers -- or even "bungee and half" ones -- don't wear their ascending rig all the way up the cave. I think they must take most of it off between pitches. Is that true, Amy?

I find carrying a tacklebag just as easy in both but i have an untraditional way to carry it that i learned from Lechuguilla explorers.

Don't just tease us, tell.

Well the benefit of the bungee n a half, or especially the even more slimed-down Clinton Walker Texas is it actually isn't any more dangly. (and that reason you point is a big part of why I hate traditional double bungee ropewalkers!) For mine, I don't wear the foot ascender through the cave, but really, one should never be walking on a foot ascender, pantin or otherwise as this will quickly wear the webbing on it   And just like in Clintons, for mine the bungee just slips off my shoulder and ascender is stowed, same way as you would stow the upper jammer with footloops on a frog system. Really, your main difference in weight and bulk is the chest plate/chest roller, and Clinton's system solves that trouble. With his chest roller, my walker can take up no more space than my frog in a pack. He really did a brilliant job of combining the systems for efficiency in both types of rope scenarios, bulk, and weight.

If you can tell, I am super against the "only-one-way-to-do-things-right" mentality  We are all different. We all live with our own bodies. Therefore we all know what feels right and what doesn't for our own bodies. At the end of the day, two questions matter:
Is it safe? Yes.
Did you get up the rope? Yes.
That is ALL that matters.

As to carrying a sack - I shall try and explain well but it's kinda hard to put in words and I have no photo of it. You need a length of cordage preferably pre-tied to proper length with bights on both ends. Take the cordage and run it up through the leg loop of your seat harness, across to the other leg loop, and back down that second leg loop. The ends are clipped to the pack. This puts the load under your harness attachment point keeping center of gravity low. It also distributes the load in such a way that you really do not notice the weight (they haul 50+ pound bags in Lech these days, so they'd know!) as it doesn't pull you down. The lifting of it comes with the raising of the upper jammer of a frog, so it's not extra effort to actually move up the rope. It works the same on a ropewalker if using proper ropewalking form. It can take some time to get the length of cordage exactly right (you want it in reach of your feet so it doesn't get hung up, but you don't want it in your way either, that happy fine line needs found). because it is hanging by/under your bum, it doesn't get tangled or caught into the rope near as troublesome as if you hook it to the central mallion. Works brilliantly. Not everyone loves it of course, but again, different and if that cordage isn't the right length exact it can bugger things up.

 

[Mike Hopley]

Thanks Amy, that's interesting.

For mine, I don't wear the foot ascender through the cave, but really, one should never be walking on a foot ascender, pantin or otherwise as this will quickly wear the webbing on it

I find it's not a problem. Sure, the strap will wear, but it takes a long time. I ground through two descenders (not just spools!) before my Pantin strap got significantly worn. And even then, it wasn't worn under the foot, but where it threaded through the casing.

He really did a brilliant job of combining the systems for efficiency in both types of rope scenarios, bulk, and weight.

Yes he did. The roller is ingenious and makes my own design look pants.

If you can tell, I am super against the "only-one-way-to-do-things-right" mentality 

Amen to that.

As to carrying a sack - I shall try and explain well but it's kinda hard to put in words and I have no photo of it.

I'm not sure, but I think this sounds similar to what I already do. I have a short length of cord tied between the two leg loops. Tacklesack haul cords get clipped to this, rather than my central maillon.

As well as the advantages you mentioned, suspending tacklesacks from the leg loops stops them from attacking the bollocks. Which is nice.

 

[cap n chris]

As to carrying a sack - I shall try and explain well but it's kinda hard to put in words and I have no photo of it. You need a length of cordage preferably pre-tied to proper length with bights on both ends. Take the cordage and run it up through the leg loop of your seat harness, across to the other leg loop, and back down that second leg loop. The ends are clipped to the pack. This puts the load under your harness attachment point keeping center of gravity low.

A bit like this?.... lowest picture, left hand side:

 

[Burt]

options 4 and 5 look like crotch-chafing waiting to happen!

 

[cap n chris]

 

[CaverCSE]

As I always say, the best mindset to have is to steel all the best ideas that everyone else comes up with and then evolve those ideas to fit your particular needs. I just took the concept of the bulky ropewalking system and adapted it to use in my favorite cave, the massive Rumbling Falls Cave. Just keep in mind, most of the caving we do here is very very different than the extremely deep caves that Alpine Rope Techniques was developed for (though we can always get ideas from one another and adapt them to fit our particular needs).

Here's some of the changes I've made on my personal system since that video (also, I didn't have a lot my gear when I did the video; I normally cave with a BMS long micro rack and occasionally even use my Petzl Simple or a munter hitch).... One major thing that I did change on my variation of the ropewalker is that I now use a "goat's tail" (which is similar to a cows tail but more compact) as the safety tether that's attached to my knee ascender when climbing. Another thing I've changed is that I now use a "chicken loop" on my foot loop for my knee ascender which allows me to just unclip my goat's tail tether from my knee ascender and rap my knee ascender around my ankle (clipping it into its own tether) to store it for quick travel between drops that are close to one another. Also, I now have switched to using two of the new smaller Petzl Basics for the ascenders on my system since I wore out the teeth on my older ascenders and couldn't resist buying the little cute things. Another thing I've done occasionally on longer drops is to wear a croll with frog harness under everything so I can climb climb hands free all while still retaining two points of contact (by uncliping my upper ascender). Wearing a croll means more weight and bulk but it is very nice to have when I'm willing and able to carry that extra weight and bulk. I'm sure there's many more modifications I'm leaving out since I love experimenting with new ideas (that are safe of course) and tweaking things. Unfortunately Petzl removed the useful lock off hole on their newer Pantin design, limiting its versatility drastically just to save a few millimeters of space (Why?!). The problem this creates when it comes to using a Pantin for ropewalking is that it's much harder to keep the newer non-locking Pantin on rope while using it with a ropewalker. The lack of the lock off hole also makes the Pantin useless for any emergency ascender roles you may need to use it for, but that's another topic entirely.

The thing to remember about caving where I'm from (Middle Tennessee) is that most of our large multi mile cave systems involve a massive amount of effort put in horizontal travel to reach the vertical leads that we want to explore (even as much as 10km or more in a few caves). We occasionally have to bushwhack for miles just to reach the caves as well. On close to 90 percent of the cave trips I go on, I don't climb with the full ropewalker setup and just bring a minimalist Texas system. Before experimenting around with different climbing systems, I surprisingly climbed exclusively on a Frog system for my first 9 years of caving. I was actually one of the early adopters of the Frog System in my area and often had to teach everyone else how to use one efficiently.

 

[Fulk]

Hi Caver CSE, there's some interesting input there.

May I ask why you use a Texas system in preference to a Frog set-up? It strikes me that in terms of weight/bulk there is little to choose between them, but the Frog has the advantage that the foot-jammer is above the Croll.

 

[Mike Hopley]

Hi Clinton!

Your chest roller design is brilliant. Thanks for making that video and pictures showing how to make it.

I am still working on my new setup, which is essentially your system with a frog instead of a texas. But the chest roller seems to work extremely well. It's fun to experiment.

I'd love to see what a big company like Petzl could do with your design.

 

[CaverCSE]

Thanks! I use a Texas most of the time because I can fit though tighter stuff on one, I can easily down climb with one, and I just randomly started liking climbing on a Texas for some reason.. The Frog is much better for most things though...

 

[Mike Hopley]

...it's much harder to keep the newer non-locking Pantin on rope while using it with a ropewalker.

I had the same problem with the Pantin. I can keep it on the rope easily when frogging, but not when ropewalking.

Have you seen the Climbing Technology foot ascenders? They have a version that locks like a Croll. In all other respects, it's just like the old Pantin.

 

[pwhole]

I've been quite intrigued by these, as the Pantin slipping off when you least want it to is a constant frustration. However, I am concerned that there may be rare occasions (say in very tight pitches) when you really need to be able to just kick it off if you can't reach down to unclip it manually, and then you could be stuck. I doubt enough people have used them in caving yet to make a considered decision on it, but I'd be interested to know if it's happened to anyone.

 

[Mike Hopley]

I find that, half the time, the Pantin doesn't kick off when I want it to anyway -- instead, it moves higher up the rope, and then cannot be kicked off. But that might just be me.

My preference in very tight pitches is to have the absolute minimum of stuff attached. I would take off my Pantin before I got to the tight spot. I would certainly not want the Pantin on the rope if I couldn't reach down and take it off by hand. I think that is asking for trouble.

Sometimes I take off my Croll as well. Depending on the pitch, I may be able to treat it as a climb, using my hand jammer as a safety.

 

[AR]

I've been quite intrigued by these, as the Pantin slipping off when you least want it to is a constant frustration. However, I am concerned that there may be rare occasions (say in very tight pitches) when you really need to be able to just kick it off if you can't reach down to unclip it manually, and then you could be stuck. I doubt enough people have used them in caving yet to make a considered decision on it, but I'd be interested to know if it's happened to anyone.

The metal catches on these look similar the old-style petzl jammers so I suspect with a bit of practice, it would be possible to unclip it with your other foot. As I seem to have misplaced my pantin, I might have to see if Starless River could get me one at some point.

 

[Mike Hopley]

As I seem to have misplaced my pantin, I might have to see if Starless River could get me one at some point.

Yep, I got mine from Tony.

 

[pwhole]

My preference in very tight pitches is to have the absolute minimum of stuff attached. I would take off my Pantin before I got to the tight spot. I would certainly not want the Pantin on the rope if I couldn't reach down and take it off by hand. I think that is asking for trouble.

Funnily enough, I found myself almost in that predicament on Sunday in some tight, steeply-sloping pitches - and typically my Pantin refused to stay on unless I adopted a 'Charlie Chaplin' stance, but in the end it was more trouble than it was worth. And yes, I too ended up taking my Croll/or Basic off for much of it and free-climbing, despite the risk, as I felt safer on one device than two! Sometimes it's just too tight for proper technique...

 

[potholer]

I make my (old-style) Pantin highly unlikely to accidentally disconnect via the use of some shockcord - a short length (of something like 5mm diameter?), one end with a loop tied in it which larks-foots into the loop on the buckle, and the other with a double-loop knot tied in it with the loops pushed through the Pantin body hole from behind.

The cam can be forced down enough to get the rope in/out, but the shockcord loops effectively act like a very stiff spring which only engages at meaningful cam opening, and it's very hard for the cam to open to release distance in normal use, even with extreme foot movements (like thrashing around trying to run like hell up a waterfall) or if climbing nonvertical rope such as above somewhat sideways rebelays or tied off pitch bottoms, or above meaningful deviations.

Similarly, it's very unlikely for it to accidentally engage on anything if it isn't being used.

While rope attachment/removal is easier two-handed, it's possible single-handed, and single-handed on-rope removal is possible in fairly tight pitches, if they are wide, rather than body-sized tubes, at least for someone with decent-length arms.

Reverting to normal is easy by simply pulling the loops out of the hole, but I'm struggling to remember ever doing that.
Of course, this isn't possible on the new Pantins, since they don't have a hole

 

[Fulk]

Last night I tried rope-walking, using my Pantin on my right-hand foot and a floating jammer with bungie cord for my left-hand one; it seemed at first to be quite promising, but every time I took a couple of steps the Pantin just came off the rope (I'd just used it for the standard 'Frog-cum-Pantin' on the previous pitch, and it worked fine).

I figure that maybe the Pantin was too close to the 'floating jammer', which resulted in the rope's being pulled sideways. Does anybody have any advice on how to improve the system ? maybe a longer foot-loop to the floating jammer and a shorter bungie cord?

 

[cap n chris]

:read:

I make my (old-style) Pantin highly unlikely to accidentally disconnect via the use of some shockcord - a short length (of something like 5mm diameter?), one end with a loop tied in it which larks-foots into the loop on the buckle, and the other with a double-loop knot tied in it with the loops pushed through the Pantin body hole from behind.

The cam can be forced down enough to get the rope in/out, but the shockcord loops effectively act like a very stiff spring which only engages at meaningful cam opening, and it's very hard for the cam to open to release distance in normal use, even with extreme foot movements (like thrashing around trying to run like hell up a waterfall) or if climbing nonvertical rope such as above somewhat sideways rebelays or tied off pitch bottoms, or above meaningful deviations.

Similarly, it's very unlikely for it to accidentally engage on anything if it isn't being used.

While rope attachment/removal is easier two-handed, it's possible single-handed, and single-handed on-rope removal is possible in fairly tight pitches, if they are wide, rather than body-sized tubes, at least for someone with decent-length arms.

Reverting to normal is easy by simply pulling the loops out of the hole, but I'm struggling to remember ever doing that.
Of course, this isn't possible on the new Pantins, since they don't have a hole

 

[Fulk]

Thank you for that, cap'n;  :bow:

Yes, OK I should have gone trawling through what has already been written . . . . . .

 

[pwhole]

Just out of interest, how long is your bungee cord, how have you attached it to the waistbelt, and does it stow away practically when you're not using it? I can see it being a big advantage on a pitch, but not so clever trying to worm your way through a delicate boulder choke. I'm keen to try this method, but don't want to end up feeling like the Saucepan Man every time I start a rope-climb.