Some good news on cave access

[TheBitterEnd]

And as I said in #54 and #195 exceptions are exceptions and should be treated as such. They should not be used to spread FUD and attempt to dictate national policy.

 

[paul]

(I can't do that clever quote thing like you lot)

Just click on the "Quote" button above the message in question. Everything will then be between [ q u o t e ] and [ / q u o t e ] and will show as a quoted part of the reply.

 

[Bob Mehew]

Is there a specific mechanism under the act that allows for a specific site to be protected by being gated and having warden-led only trips? If so, can you give me the section of the act that lays this out?

Sec 26(1) gives the power to the relevant authority to exclude or restrict access to land for a purpose as laid out in Sec 26(3)(a).  The relevant authority is defined in Sec 21(5) and (6) as National Park authority, Forestry Commissioners or the appropriate countryside body (being Natural England or Natural Resources Wales).  No doubt Local Access Forums would be part of the process.

 

[bog4053]

(I can't do that clever quote thing like you lot)

Just click on the "Quote" button above the message in question. Everything will then be between [ q u o t e ] and [ / q u o t e ] and will show as a quoted part of the reply.

Thanks Paul, looks a bit odd in this little box but here goes

 

[Badlad]

This whole debate is much larger than just a focus on Leck and Casterton Fells (or the CNCC for that matter).  If you read the part of my article that briefly covered the situation in Wales you will note that it is the Welsh Government who is suggesting a review of legislation which includes CRoW - not cavers.  They even state that the focus is on improving access for social, economic and health benefits and include caving as one of the activities which they might like to see with improved access. 

The BCA working group remit does not cover Wales so it will be up to the Cambrian CC to respond to the green paper consultation as will many other pro-access groups.  It is entirely possible that much greater access will be legally permitted to Welsh caves by lobby groups who are much more powerful than cavers or the bodies which are meant to represent them.

One of the points of my article was that we are not engaging with the debate on the bigger stage.  Our national and regional bodies may well continue to drag their feet but the risk is that much larger outside influences seal the deal without them and, quite frankly, that reflects very badly on them (our caving reps).

 

[Ian Adams]

The BCA working group remit does not cover Wales so it will be up to the Cambrian CC to respond to the green paper consultation .....

This was (is) a huge issue in Wales and was central to the reformation of the CCC.

The current Access and Conservation officer is now already attending to this and it is hoped that it has not been left too late.

Ian

 

[droid]

In which case, badlad, the 'representative bodies' or the denizens thereof might be better engaged in this debate, rather than seemingly defending their status or that of their organisations.

Given their lack of meaningful communication with cavers, I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Badlad]

Since my last post seems to have killed off this lively debate, I do have a question of curiosity for Graham;

Why the Citizen Smith avatar?

I have fond memories of watching this TV comedy show.  Here's a description of the show taken from the web;

Citizen Smith starred Robert Lindsay as "Wolfie" Smith, a young Marxist urban revolutionary living in Tooting, South London, who is attempting to emulate his hero Che Guevara. Wolfie is the self-proclaimed leader of the Tooting Popular Front (in reality a small bunch of his friends) the goals of which are "Power to the People" and "Freedom for Tooting". In reality, he is an unemployed dreamer and petty criminal whose plans fall through due to laziness and disorganisation.

Clearly from your postings, 'Wolfie', would not hold your views.  Can you explain? 

 

[graham]

I think you need a deeper understanding of socialist thought.  8)

(Unlike the avatar I don't smoke )

 

[NigR]

Since my last post seems to have killed off this lively debate.......

Yes, along with Ian's response, it certainly appears to have done so.

Must be the effect of people pondering over what is happening here in Wales!

Anyway, as there is a lull in the discussion, perhaps now is as good a time as any to put right a few (deliberate?) misconceptions concerning my own personal attitude towards the gating of caves. Although I would prefer all cave entrances to remain in their natural (ungated) state, I do accept that, for a variety of (sometimes valid) reasons, this is not always possible. So, (despite what some people would lead you to believe), I am not totally opposed to all cave gates purely on ideological grounds. If gates do not prevent cavers from visiting caves I have no real problem with them.

A specific example of this (in my own area, South Wales) would be Ogof Cnwc (Price's Dig) at Llangattock. The entrance is locked and gated but a key is available (on a permanent basis if so desired) to anyone (caving club members or individuals) who might want one. Although I remain unconvinced that a gate on this particular cave is absolutely essential, the means whereby access is obtained is just about as egalitarian as possible and, as such, is acceptable to me.

Also, in general terms, I am not opposed to the installation of 'lids' that can be easily opened with a readily available spanner (the "Derbyshire Key" idea). Interestingly, the first of these has recently been installed in South Wales and it is hoped that it will last somewhat longer than the previous lock which disappeared after nine days!

So, there you go, my brief attempt to put the record straight for what it's worth.

(Apologies to Graham for not addressing his specific points regarding his wonderful cave on the housing estate but I have seen that it has its own thread on the Mendip section so will do so there at a later date.)

 

[graham]

I am happy for the clarification as, the last time that this issue was raised, no such clarification was forthcoming.

 

[braveduck]

All quiet on the western front then,sure I can hear Silent Night.
Sleep well lads

 

[Badlad]

I think you need a deeper understanding of socialist thought.  8)

I'm sure you are right, but I don't understand your reply either  Anyway it is not important.  On with the debate.....

 

[bograt]

All quiet on the western front then,sure I can hear Silent Night.
Sleep well lads

And get the football ready eh?

 

[jasonbirder]

I think you need a deeper understanding of socialist thought.

I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have championed the rights of the "Landowner Class" to deny access to "The People"

 

[graham]

I think you need a deeper understanding of socialist thought.

I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have championed the rights of the "Landowner Class" to deny access to "The People"

And neither am I. However, I am pretty sure that the Tooting Popular Front never rioted and rampaged through the gardens in Acacia Avenue, either.

 

[bograt]

I think you need a deeper understanding of socialist thought.

I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have championed the rights of the "Landowner Class" to deny access to "The People"

And neither am I. However, I am pretty sure that the Tooting Popular Front never rioted and rampaged through the gardens in Acacia Avenue, either.

Thats only 'cos theres no decent caves in Acacia Avenue, wonder if "The Leck and Casterton Fells Popular Front" will ever take off? (P'raps not, too many syllables  )

 

[bograt]

For all you cynics out there, access to the "Derbyshire Key" ;
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=adjustable+spanners&rlz=1I7ADBR_en&prmd=ivns&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=2b9FU9ztM-aI7Aar7YGwCA&ved=0CB4Qsxg

Most gates and caps in the area are installed for general public protection at the landowners insistance, we have found this an acceptable solution for both parties thanks to our access officer (at the time) who set the system up.
Maybe  other areas could gain from our experience and start by asking the landowners about their reservations on caves/holes on their ground?
How many ramblers and dog walkers carry a spanner?.

 

[graham]

I think you need a deeper understanding of socialist thought.

I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have championed the rights of the "Landowner Class" to deny access to "The People"

And neither am I. However, I am pretty sure that the Tooting Popular Front never rioted and rampaged through the gardens in Acacia Avenue, either.

That's only 'cos there's no decent caves in Acacia Avenue,

Or indeed anywhere in Tooting. let's not push an analogy too far.

 

[bograt]

I think you need a deeper understanding of socialist thought.

I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have championed the rights of the "Landowner Class" to deny access to "The People"

And neither am I. However, I am pretty sure that the Tooting Popular Front never rioted and rampaged through the gardens in Acacia Avenue, either.

That's only 'cos there's no decent caves in Acacia Avenue,

Or indeed anywhere in Tooting. let's not push an analogy too far.

You chose the avatar!