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Talk about obsolete units

kay

Well-known member
Roger W said:
I don't know about the factors...  I still remember having to answer questions at school like :

How much does eight feet and nine inches of cloth cost if the price is four shillings and sevenpence halfpenny a yard?

I'm sure decimals are much easier. But chains and fathoms are much more interesting.

Now what on earth did we use to measure in versts?

The useful thing about the metric system is that lengths, volumes are all consistent with each other. A metric tonne (of water, so for practical purposes, most things you're interested in) is a cubic metre. My main use of the metric system is to convert, for example, "3 inches extra water in the pond" into gallons. Area of pond x extra depth measured in feet and inches because that's how I visualise it, convert to cubic metres, then easily into litres, from there to fluid ounces, to pints, to gallons.



 

Subpopulus Hibernia

Active member
Ah Christ, we've been here before...

You young ones have it easy - back before the metric system every country had their own system of measurement, and in fragmented places like Germany, each canton had its own foot or yard. We had it tough caving back then. Saying that a cave was a mile long was a very different thing to a Prussian as opposed to a Castillian, with the Prussian having nine miles to the Castillian's one.

I remember trying to draw up Gr?neschweinh?hle from Karsten van Adelstropp's notes in 1773 - of course you might expect that he would have measured the place in Klafters, but the only tape he could get a hold of was an old miners measuring chain which used Lachters. So, to make things easier for me, Karsten converted all the measurements to Swabian Feet (since I was in Grenoble at the time, using the pre-revolutionary French measurement of the Toise (seven Swabian feet was exactly equal to one Toise, therefore easier to convert than the more commonly used Silesian Foot (which went into one Toise 6 and three-fifths times))). However, I assumed that Karsten, being a Bavarian, would use the Bayruthean Foot (seven and one sixth to one toise), so I converted all of his measurements to the French system, which meant that every measurement was out by one 'Pied Royale' in every seven Toise. To make matters worse, Karsten wrote to me that winter to tell me that he'd discovered the measuring chain he'd used was made in Darmstadt, so it was probably based on the Hessian Lachter, which was one Zoll (about an inch), longer than the Bohemian Lachter that he though it was. At first I tried to correct the scales by rounding up or down each Pied Royale to the nearest Pouce, and then converting the lot to Amsterdam Feet, using the table at the back of and old copy of Zijkermeyer's Mercantile Almanac. But this I discovered pre-dated the Dutch measurement standardisation of 1767, so I scrapped that, and used a log table to convert all the measurements to decimal fractions of the Swiss Mile (on account of the Swiss Mile being exactly equal to 468 Toise, and therefore possible to use a base of 4.5 to calculate the exponent (or vice versa, which was why distances from Lucerne and Geneva to French towns and cities were often given in duodecimal fractions of the Toise).

At the end of all of this the centreline was plotted on a linen sheet about two (Scottish) fathoms across, with scale bars for Dutch Roeden, Thuringinan feet, French (i.e. Parisian) Miles and Castillian Yards. The engraver nearly had a fit when he saw this, but I managed to use a Camera Obscura to reduce it down to fit onto one Double Demy sheet, and we got the survey printed in time for that years Journale Francaise d'Geographie.

Another problem was disputed measurements - in 1781 the Belgians (Part of the Spanish Netherlands back then) claimed to have the deepest cave in the world (Grotte d'Agositina) at a depth of 88 (Dutch Standardised) Roeden. The Swiss claimed that Brutenh?hle was deeper at 7845 Helvetican Inches, claiming that the Belgians were (somewhat sneakily) using the Pre-standardisation Rotterdam Roede, giving it an actual depth of 79 (Dutch Standardised) Roeden (about 23 metres in modern parlance). As it turned out, the Swiss were correct on the measurement side of things, but as we now know, the Grotte d'Agositina was actually a medieval soil mine, something that was hard to make out with the poor lighting that we had back then.

Ref: http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=17700.msg232638#msg232638
 

robjones

New member
Subpopulus Hibernia said:
Ah Christ, we've been here before...

Just consider it practice for when we're all in the nursing home repeating favourite conversations from long, long ago!  ::)
 

Subpopulus Hibernia

Active member
An interesting question would be when caving adopted the use of metric measurements, and whether this was before or after a more general adoption of metric measurements.

I know some of the more staid publications were early adopters - Proceedings of the UBSS switched to metric in 1966 (I think), and Irish Speleology used a mix in 1966 and was fully metric by 1969. I suspect that this was to align themselves with other scientific publications which would have been going metric then...

From a quick look through back issues of Descent, I see that metric was used only sporadically in the 1970s, but then both measurements were consistently from the early 1980s, before the magazine went all-metric around 1990.

I was looking at Caves of the Peak District recently and I noticed that not only are both systems used, but that feet comes first with metres in brackets after it. Does this reflect how caves are actually measured and described in the Peak or is it just a reflection of the preferences of the authors?
 

Maj

Active member
robjones said:
Some decades ago I went though a phase of drawing my plans of old metal mines in fathoms : inch scales (mostly 5fms, 10 fms or 20 fms to an inch) so as to match tracings of historic plans.

Ah but!
Did you realise that a fathom in mining terms was also used as a measure of volume. Where one fathom was equal to six cubic feet.

Maj.
 

Fulk

Well-known member
I know the dates of all the kings and queens from Victoria onwards.

Sorry, kay, I just couldn't resist this after several glasses of wine and a really ******* crap day ? butI know the dates of all the kings and queens from William the Bastard onwards.  :)
 

robjones

New member
Maj said:
Ah but!
Did you realise that a fathom in mining terms was also used as a measure of volume. Where one fathom was equal to six cubic feet.

Maj.

Yup! And therein lies one of the greatest difficulties in interpreting historic grade data: when encountering statements expressing grades as 'cwts per fm', how to determine whether the writer was referring to square or cubic fathoms.

1fm3 = 216ft3 but 1fm3 if referring to the width of the lode or to the width of ground broken may be either less or more than 216ft3. A cubic fathom equal to six cubic feet as you mention would equate to a lode 2in wide; if solid galena that would be roughly 2 tons/fm - a good figure by mid C19 standards as 10cwt/fm was very roughly the economic threshold for stoping below water table, necessitating significant pumping. If we wish to discuss in more detail, I suggest we adjourn to aditnow.
 

graham

New member
Subpopulus Hibernia said:
... Proceedings of the UBSS switched to metric in 1966 (I think) ...

That is correct, as in before most of you blighters were born, so why are we still not fully over this?

Subpopulus Hibernia said:
... and Irish Speleology used a mix in 1966 and was fully metric by 1969. I suspect that this was to align themselves with other scientific publications which would have been going metric then...

Irish cave surveyorss started early and made life very complicated. In Baker's Caving published in the 1920s, there is a survey of Poulnagollum. The cave survey has a scale bar in metres and the inset area map has one in miles. Despite Baker being a typical Englishman & the survey having actually been done by Freidrich Oedl (not known for being Irish) this is so wonderfully Irish a thing.
 

kay

Well-known member
Fulk said:
I know the dates of all the kings and queens from Victoria onwards.

Sorry, kay, I just couldn't resist this after several glasses of wine and a really ******* crap day ? butI know the dates of all the kings and queens from William the Bastard onwards.  :)

Ah, but do you know when the lighthouse and the ship appeared on the Britannia side of the penny?  :tease:
 

bograt

Active member
kay said:
Ah, but do you know when the lighthouse and the ship appeared on the Britannia side of the penny?  :tease:

Wasn't this around the time Victoria lost her bun?, or maybe when silver threpenny bits went out? :-\
 

Fulk

Well-known member
Ah, but do you know when the lighthouse and the ship appeared on the Britannia side of the penny?  :tease:

No . . . but wasn't that the halfpenny?

I do remember the robin on the farthing, and the fact that one could still buy a sweety for a farthing!!! (And later, 12 pints of beer for a quid.)
 

bograt

Active member
Fulk said:
Ah, but do you know when the lighthouse and the ship appeared on the Britannia side of the penny?  :tease:

No . . . but wasn't that the halfpenny?

I do remember the robin on the farthing, and the fact that one could still buy a sweety for a farthing!!! (And later, 12 pints of beer for a quid.)

Thought it was a Wren??

When I first started drinking - Mild 1s-3d a pint, Bitter 1s-6d a pint. Unless you where in the 'best room', an extra penny to pay for the carpet!.
 

traff

Member
Laurie said:
:halo:I remember V1s flying overhead.

.....and I still have a sliderule.

Whilst being a whipper snapper still the right side of 40 I don't remember V1s however I still use a slide rule.

When I was a small boy I recall receiving a crisp fiver from gran for my birthday. Later in the day I spotted a pocket calculator in Woolies for ?4.99 and wanted to make an investment. On being told I couldn't have it much blubbing ensued. Dragged home, Dad issued me with my first slide rule and said up on mastering the device he would buy me the calculator and I could keep the fiver  ;)

To this day in the garage I keep a slide rule, log tables, pad of paper and a 2H pencil next to the calculator with flat batteries.........
 

Fulk

Well-known member
Log tables, huh? I remember doing lots of calculations at school that involved certain numbers repeated over again, such as 1 atmosphere = 760 mm Hg . . . to the extent that decades later I still remember that log760 = 2.8808 (I think).
 

Laurie

Active member
When calculators first appeared in the mid '70s everyone wanted one that did square roots though nobody could actually find a use for them.  :confused:
 

AR

Well-known member
bograt said:
When I first started drinking - Mild 1s-3d a pint, Bitter 1s-6d a pint. Unless you where in the 'best room', an extra penny to pay for the carpet!.

You spent a penny on the carpet??? :tease:
 
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