The quality and purpose of trip reports

mudman

Member
Hmm, I think some of you chaps are unjustified in giving Kenilworth a hard time. I don't think he is a troll. He may come across as rather negative, but to me, he is just asking us to be a bit more empathic in our trip reports. When we say that we were gobsmacked by something, why were we gobsmacked? What is it about the place/formation/obstacle/whatever that gave us pause to stop and think? Maybe be a bit more descriptive, explain what it is about the situation that made you stand and stare, swear profusely or maybe even cause you to cack your pants.
I don't think he's saying trip reports that follow the tried and tested path that he described are bad, just maybe that we can perhaps do a little better and that we would be able to create something that would be be more evocative of the trip we are describing.
I've had a few beers so I shall have to re-read this tomorrow, but I hope I make sense.  :beer:
 

cavemanmike

Well-known member
Beauty is in the eyes 👀 of the  beholder.
So if you are writing a trip report it is Your
Prerogative to to be as poetic  as you see fit.
After all it'  personal thing and no body  should take that away from you
 

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
Kenilworth's comments may have more value if he set the standard himself.  Let's see some trip reports from him to his own exacting standards and see if they pass scrutiny from forum members. 

Lets see how much better he can do that recent reports from Emsy, Balmerfish, Chilipepper or a Simon Beck classic

Kenilworth - here is a challenge for you.  At the moment most of your posting seems to be directed towards mild offence and subtle trolling.  Put your money where your keyboard is, pal and get writing.    :)

 

Kenilworth

New member
I think I have posted trip reports here before, and will probably do again. This isn't about competition, and I have no interest in doing better than Balmerfish or Simon Beck (some of whose writings, despite violating some of "my standards", have indeed reached the level of art), only better than myself. I have never been able to meet my own standards, and have only very rarely been satisfied with anything I've written. Nonetheless, I'm trying. The purpose of this thread was to illuminate wasted potential, not to offend. My criticism was for the state of the genre, not the writers who adhere to it.

This is the only quasi-trip report that I can hunt down. The first post is mostly description.
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=20679.0

Gerbil007 said:
You don't think you've said anything emotive?

Are you autistic?

No. I do forget sometimes that tearful hand-wringing and aggressive outrage are the currently acceptable responses to criticism.


 

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
Kenilworth said:
... I have never been able to meet my own standards...

This is a key statement that you should make much more often, perhaps before each of your posts.  It would help to avoid  many misunderstandings.  :)
 

droid

Active member
Badlad said:
At the moment most of your posting seems to be directed towards mild offence and subtle trolling.

Trolling seems pretty blatant to me. Just because it's wrapped in semi-coherent 'stream of consciousness' meanderings doesn't make it 'subtle'.

Kenilworth likes 'debate'. He refuses that 'debate' with anyone that isn't prepared to accept his excuses for trolling, and if cornered changes the subject.

The probability is that he's the same with every forum he's on and that this is the only one that hasn't given him the push.

 

Kenilworth

New member
What is a troll?

As I understand it, the internet term ?troll? refers to an individual whose online interactions are designed to cause contention, one for whom provocation is the only goal, and one who derives joy from creating anger, frustration, and outrage.  Is this more or less accurate? If so, it seems to me that the term is being overused, and not only in reference to myself. Of course I can only speak for myself.

When I began starting threads on this site, it was reluctantly. I knew that what I was writing would not be particularly popular in a forum of cavers. However, I believed that cavers were the only group in a position to understand and knowledgeably assess my ideas. Being largely isolated, physically and intellectually, I wanted and want badly to understand the intricacies of various problems, to be challenged and corrected, to learn. Well, it isn?t working very well. There have been a few considered responses, but mostly aggressive and thoughtless ones. I?ve been called insane, drunken, drugged, and otherwise mentally impaired. I?ve been called a liar by liars, a coward by cowards, and a troll by trolls.

The idea of an internet forum is an interesting one. It is not possible to virtually replicate a physical conversation or exchange of ideas. For one thing, unless the writers are skilled linguists, much is lost in textual conversation. Personality and humor are bleached away, and intent and sincerity are easily questioned. Also absent is the responsibility to community that keeps real neighbors mannerly. So it is not surprising that misunderstandings happen or that troublemakers thrive. But if a forum is to have the most possible value, its users need to make a sincere effort to communicate honestly and in good faith. They can do this while questioning, affirming, criticizing, arguing, denouncing, correcting, praising, or excoriating. If you sincerely believe that a person is simply trying to provoke a dramatic reaction, by all means ignore them. If you aren?t sure, try asking some honest questions, publicly or privately. Resist hastily categorizing anyone, no matter how violently you may disagree with them.

I do not know what I am. I may be oblivious, presumptuous, ignorant, verbose, egotistical, na?ve, insensitive, awkward, a poor writer, and plain old wrong. Surely I am all of those things in some measure. Surely too I have responded too quickly and too emotionally to a few of you, for which I apologize. But I am not a troll. Good or bad, the things I?ve posted here have been sincere. I have received no joy nor thrill from the agitated responses. I have tried to provoke thought, not rage. I still have questions and opinions and ideas that I hope will be fairly and thoughtfully received, and as a student I still yearn for intelligent criticism. So I will post here until my hopes are exhausted or until the owners of the site ask me to stop. Until then, please ask yourself what a troll really is, and try to measure twice before cutting.
 

dunc

New member
Kenilworth, you ask what is a troll? Judging by recent threads it could easily be something as simple as anyone who has a contentious viewpoint, asks pertinent questions, and does not succumb to pressure by a small majority to roll over and toe a party line. If you are considered a troll (I do not consider you onesuch), it is probably only by people who disagree with you. I find your postings an excellent debating stance. Without your input the forum would be a far less vibrant experience. Keep on keeping on. :)
 

NewStuff

New member
Kenilworth said:
What is a troll?
...sperg cut for brevity...

My definition:-

A troll is someone that posts a statement or opinion for the sole reason of causing anger, outrage or other emotional response, the statement or opinion specifically crafted to generate said responses.

Now, you're good at it, better than your average "drive-by" troll. You dress it up well and use previous responses to better aid your dressing up, but you are still a troll, and there are things that still give you away. There's zero chance I'll be telling you what those are so you can work on or remedy them though, but I've got your number.
 

JasonC

Well-known member
I don't think K is a troll, but if he is, then the answer is just to not read the bloody thread.

I'm not sure what the word is for someone who joins in just to shout "Troll, troll!"  (a billy goat??), but I find such comments just as irksome as trolling.

<dons tin hat>
 

Mark

Well-known member
I don't know why, but I imagine Kenilworth to have the voice, of the Hal 9000 computer from 2001 A Space Oddesey
 

Kenilworth

New member
Mark said:
I don't know why, but I imagine Kenilworth to have the voice, of the Hal 9000 computer from 2001 A Space Oddesey

That can't help my case. Would you like my telephone number so we can at least clear that up with some certainty? :confused:

 

NewStuff

New member
JasonC said:
I don't think K is a troll, but if he is, then the answer is just to not read the bloody thread.

I'm not sure what the word is for someone who joins in just to shout "Troll, troll!"  (a billy goat??), but I find such comments just as irksome as trolling.

<dons tin hat>

I was duped at first, and I participated in threads. But over time I Formed the opinion of him being a troll. It doesn't matter what the subject is, as long as it's emotive, and he's on the "wrong" side of it.
 

MarkS

Moderator
[mod]If anyone doesn't like the writing style of any specific user on this forum, there is no obligation to read topics they start. In fact, topics are labelled with who started them so there is no need to even open a topic in the first place, should you want to avoid it. There was a fair bit of civil discussion on this thread before it degenerated into a discussion of what makes a troll.

If you think a post isn't within the forum's acceptable use policy please report it with your reasoning and let the moderators deal with it from there.
[/mod]
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Trip reports may be documentary, descriptive, scientific, literary, or exhibitive, and are often created under a combination of motivations. Their value depends not on the skill of the writer alone, but on the intention of the writer. For example, if they are documentary, descriptive, or scientific (by which I mean informative), there is no need to consider things like grammar during an assignation of quality. If they are literary, factualness will not be of primary value. If they are merely exhibitive, they will have very little value of any kind.

Most modern trip reports written by cavers are merely exhibitive. The trip reports found on this forum, and in the pages of US grotto publications are largely so. One could easily write a great stack of them without once entering a cave or leaving home. They have a fairly standard form:

I woke up at such and such a time and met so and so at a place. The weather was thus. We went to another place and met other people and ate certain food. We rode to the site and put on clothes and got our things together. We walked to the cave. The weather again. We had feelings at the entrance. We entered and performed various physical feats. Someone said something clever. We found the physicality of our movements less than comfortable. We realized we had forgotten some bit of hardware. Someone expressed semi-comic despair, but we made do. We ate such and such. We headed back out. Some exaggerated peril happened. We had some emotions. We got to the entrance, and into the weather, where we had some emotions again. We walked to the car and fiddled with clothes. We rode somewhere and ate something and drank some alcohol. The end.

Fill in imaginary specifics, and you can write trip reports of the acceptable standard until the cows come home.

Why is this the acceptable standard? Why are these sorts of writings encouraged and praised? At least we do not need to ask why they are written. They are part and parcel of the overwhelming narcissism of modern society. When I say they are exhibitive, I mean that, like Facebook and Instagram, their main purpose is to expose an individual to an audience. Not an individual's work, not an individual's art, not information valuable or educational or interesting or inspiring to the audience... simply the individual's existence. Why we need to announce and re-announce the mundane fact of our existence to the world of strangers who don't care and acquaintances who already know is a much bigger topic than I can tackle. So, limiting myself to trip reports, here are a list of suggestions and observations that might improve the quality of our writings and, importantly, the quality of our time spent underground.

--

Know why you are writing. If you simply want the world to know you've gone caving, fine, but realize that, properly and inevitably, almost no one cares.

Try not to exaggerate the scale and significance of your underground doings. Since our day-to-day physical surroundings are often mundane, and our interactions with the physical world take place through many layers of insulation, the enhanced perception that caving can prompt may make this difficult.

Caving is not dangerous or a sport. Caving does not make you daring, tough, or an athlete.

While both are denominations of currency in the spelean cultural economy, misery is not meritorious, and neither is originality. Relating that you got cold and sore and found a new passage (or worse, were the first woman (amputee, midget, transgender auto-mechanic, escaped zoo-monkey, etc.) to see a certain chamber (climb a certain dome, reach a certain depth, negotiate a certain squeeze, etc.)) will not make your trip report interesting or impressive.

Almost none of our physical feats underground are noteworthy.

What we observe of our surroundings is noteworthy.

What we learn is noteworthy.

What we can teach is noteworthy.

It follows that if we want to write a trip report of value, we will need to quit focusing on ourselves, and observe, learn, and think. If we do not do so, we have nothing to say, and no reason to make a report.

If writing for purposes of documentation, clarity is the primary goal. Making notes or sketches in-cave can help you create high-quality descriptions.

If writing artistically, wait a week before sharing and re-read your work, editing or discarding as needed.

--

Good trip reports are part of cave conservation. Visitors to a fragile and singular place should take as much as possible from the experience. We all do this in different ways, and writing trip reports should by no means be viewed as a requirement. But if we are able to write something informative, interesting, thought-provoking, or inspiring, we will have received full value for our time, and for the wear on the cave.

Lastly, I have written many bad trip reports, and do not wish to insult the authors of the many trip reports I have characterized as bad. Every effort that I read or write makes me hopeful and appreciative. If they're bad, I'm glad to say so, but they are also evidence that caves are inspiring places, and provide needed causation for our working with our language. If every caver who writes about caving would make an honest effort at improvement, I am confident that many real works of value, even works of art and literature, would emerge.
I have referred (in personal conversation(s)) to this insightful thread very many times over the last seven years and still consider it to be spot on, thumb on the pulse, stuff; Kenilworth's pithy and devastating critique of the bland narcissicism of trip reports is noteworthy. So I'm bumping it. Because it seems worthy to do so.
 

Boy Engineer

Active member
I have referred (in personal conversation(s)) to this insightful thread very many times over the last seven years and still consider it to be spot on, thumb on the pulse, stuff; Kenilworth's pithy and devastating critique of the bland narcissicism of trip reports is noteworthy. So I'm bumping it. Because it seems worthy to do so.
More’s the pity.
 
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