Trespass
- Thread starter Badlad
- Start date
I seem to recall legislation aimed at preventing terrorism was used against peaceful protesters trying to stop the authorities cutting down trees in Sheffield.
It would not surprise me at all if this legislation is used on outdoor groups in some way and not just restricted to traveller encampments.
It would not surprise me at all if this legislation is used on outdoor groups in some way and not just restricted to traveller encampments.
ttxela2
Active member
It definitely seems like a concerning move, I recall one occasion where due to a map reading error I walked along a field edge where I thought a path ran, I was approaching a minor road where a car screeched to a halt and a fellow, practically apoplectic with rage leapt out and spluttered at me that I was trespassing and there was no path there. I insisted that there was, a short argument followed, I consulted my map and acknowledged that, yes, the path was about a metre and a half away on the other side of the hedge.
Hoping to end the confrontation I began to step towards the road which was only a few yards away where I could rejoin my route correctly (which headed along the road anyway). This prompted the fellow to even more rage and he insisted I could not proceed. The hedge was impenetrable for me to join the correct path and so I pointed out that my only alternative was to retrace my steps for much further to where the original error was made. This suggestion really infuriated him which left us at somewhat of an impasse'.
In the end I simply walked past him and onto the road in the face of a barrage of shouting and fist waving and he jumped back in his car and sped off with much tyre screeching.
This was perhaps 3 years ago but still sticks in my memory, I never felt particularly intimidated and the incident was more comical than anything else, I assume he was the farmer but I've still no real idea what prompted his rage, it was just an ordinary arable field and I was walking the edge doing no discernible damage, the correct path didn't look well used so I can't imagine crowds of folk pass that way causing problems.
Interesting to speculate that if this happened in the future he may have been justified in calling the police and I could have been arrested and spent the rest of my days breaking rocks in the hot sun.
Hoping to end the confrontation I began to step towards the road which was only a few yards away where I could rejoin my route correctly (which headed along the road anyway). This prompted the fellow to even more rage and he insisted I could not proceed. The hedge was impenetrable for me to join the correct path and so I pointed out that my only alternative was to retrace my steps for much further to where the original error was made. This suggestion really infuriated him which left us at somewhat of an impasse'.
In the end I simply walked past him and onto the road in the face of a barrage of shouting and fist waving and he jumped back in his car and sped off with much tyre screeching.
This was perhaps 3 years ago but still sticks in my memory, I never felt particularly intimidated and the incident was more comical than anything else, I assume he was the farmer but I've still no real idea what prompted his rage, it was just an ordinary arable field and I was walking the edge doing no discernible damage, the correct path didn't look well used so I can't imagine crowds of folk pass that way causing problems.
Interesting to speculate that if this happened in the future he may have been justified in calling the police and I could have been arrested and spent the rest of my days breaking rocks in the hot sun.
RobinGriffiths
Well-known member
Some landowners are ok, some aren't. I was doing a new path a few weeks ago where the OS map showed the path going between a house and some out buildings, but the path had actually been re-routed around the house. I had a polite 'can I help you' from the owner, with a 'you're welcome to continue' if you're happy to climb the gate to rejoin the path.
ttxela2
Active member
It's certainly true that some (most) landowners would be reasonable in this sort of case and perhaps bad reactions are based on previous experiences where damage was caused - however if this becomes a criminal act then presumably I would have had no defence and would have to be punished by whatever penalty is set for this offence?
Or perhaps not - intent is often required to be proved for an offence to take place, indecent exposure being a good example, you cannot be prosecuted simply because of a 'wardrobe malfunction' whereas something like speeding is always an offence and 'just not seeing the sign' is not a defence.
So I guess how worried walkers and such need to be all depends on how the law is worded......
Or perhaps not - intent is often required to be proved for an offence to take place, indecent exposure being a good example, you cannot be prosecuted simply because of a 'wardrobe malfunction' whereas something like speeding is always an offence and 'just not seeing the sign' is not a defence.
So I guess how worried walkers and such need to be all depends on how the law is worded......
ChrisJC
Well-known member
ttxela2 said:
The problem for me isn't necessarily how the law is worded, it is how the first judges to try the new law interpret it. So a good lawyer will twist it away from the original intent (which is probably good), and into something which can be abused by those with the deepest pockets.
Chris.
Speleofish
Active member
Reading the factsheet, the bill seems to have a fairly narrow focus and is directed mainly at travellers/people camping in vehicles. Obviously much depends on the wording of the eventual bill but it doesn't seem to change the situation for pedestrians. It may strengthen police powers to intervene in aggravated trespass (does this include unsanctioned digging?) but otherwise I don't see how it will affect the majority of people.
However, as ChrisJC says, by the time a lawyer has tangled things up and a judge has re-interpreted it, the effect may be less benign.
However, as ChrisJC says, by the time a lawyer has tangled things up and a judge has re-interpreted it, the effect may be less benign.
i had a memorable experience when out prospecting up Wharfedale a few years back with my wife.
We were the wrong side of the wall from the access land to be honest and had followed a track along the bench that cut in round a ghyl and back out.
As I checked out a small shake hole Sarah noticed two farmers lads who started shouting across the ghyl at us whilst waving their shotgun in our direction. We took this as a bad sign.
For a moment I pondered our situation then realised that while they were looked close they did have to run round the top of the ghyl, so we probably had quite a head start and were both fairly good runners.
That was it we both set off along the bench at a fair pace with two teenagers swearing profusely in hot pursuit.
After getting on for a mile we came across a lone walker also trespassing and in the middle of his lunch - Surprised he first saw us then heard the expletives and finally linked the events, rapidly packing up and setting off after us.
After about a mile and a half we finally reached a footpath cutting down off the fell and hared off down it, still with the noise of angry teenagers in the distance.
To this day I cannot imagine what the teenagers would have done had they managed to shoot us - Would we have been taken back to the farm as trophies.
Alternatively they could have caught up with us only to find we were nastier than them!
I definitely learnt a valuable lesson that day - dressing appropriately does not mean wearing your favourite bright red fleece when trespassing!
The whole thing does bring out the stupidity of the situation in relation to access, as the fell in question is unimproved land, just on their chosen side of the wall.
We were the wrong side of the wall from the access land to be honest and had followed a track along the bench that cut in round a ghyl and back out.
As I checked out a small shake hole Sarah noticed two farmers lads who started shouting across the ghyl at us whilst waving their shotgun in our direction. We took this as a bad sign.
For a moment I pondered our situation then realised that while they were looked close they did have to run round the top of the ghyl, so we probably had quite a head start and were both fairly good runners.
That was it we both set off along the bench at a fair pace with two teenagers swearing profusely in hot pursuit.
After getting on for a mile we came across a lone walker also trespassing and in the middle of his lunch - Surprised he first saw us then heard the expletives and finally linked the events, rapidly packing up and setting off after us.
After about a mile and a half we finally reached a footpath cutting down off the fell and hared off down it, still with the noise of angry teenagers in the distance.
To this day I cannot imagine what the teenagers would have done had they managed to shoot us - Would we have been taken back to the farm as trophies.
Alternatively they could have caught up with us only to find we were nastier than them!
I definitely learnt a valuable lesson that day - dressing appropriately does not mean wearing your favourite bright red fleece when trespassing!
The whole thing does bring out the stupidity of the situation in relation to access, as the fell in question is unimproved land, just on their chosen side of the wall.
crickleymal
New member
I'd have been tempted to report it to the police. Threatening people with firearms is serious.
RobinGriffiths
Well-known member
Sounds like a cross between a Benny Hill chase and Deliverance.
crickleymal
New member
Well trespass isn't criminal and they were able to identify them as teenagers.
I had a similar experience a few years earlier and pre CRoW whilst coming back from a days digging at Benfoot with John New.
The weather was dreadful, cold wet and windy, so rather than being more discreet we cut straight across the fell down past Swarthgill to the Mossdale track.
A few hundred metres before we got to the track we spotted a line of fancy Range Rovers just upstream of Mossdale and coming our way.
We hurriedly bridged the gap to the track and then walked along it calmly waiting for them to pass and trying to look innocent.
As the first one caught up with us it slowed and my heart sank as an extremely well dressed gent wound down the window, looked me in the eye and with a wry smile asked "Good days caving Lads?" before raising the window and calmly driving off.
In this case we were caught red handed and he made his point, but in a far more dignified way.
Maybe that's the difference between a hill farmer and the landed gentry.
The weather was dreadful, cold wet and windy, so rather than being more discreet we cut straight across the fell down past Swarthgill to the Mossdale track.
A few hundred metres before we got to the track we spotted a line of fancy Range Rovers just upstream of Mossdale and coming our way.
We hurriedly bridged the gap to the track and then walked along it calmly waiting for them to pass and trying to look innocent.
As the first one caught up with us it slowed and my heart sank as an extremely well dressed gent wound down the window, looked me in the eye and with a wry smile asked "Good days caving Lads?" before raising the window and calmly driving off.
In this case we were caught red handed and he made his point, but in a far more dignified way.
Maybe that's the difference between a hill farmer and the landed gentry.
tony from suffolk
Well-known member
Being one of the "Locals", the farmers hereabouts are happy to let me wander around their field edges on my early morning dog walks, as long as I'm prepared to chew the fat with them for a while, but anyone they don't know gets the sharp edge of their tongue. It's a real problem to them during this pandemic, with the ignorant townies tramping across crops.
Echoing Wardy's experience, I remember a group of us walking across the fields to the top of Ebbor Gorge to do a bit of abseiling when a hunt was on. A couple of riders, dressed in their hunting kit, came galloping towards us & a very posh, indignant lady demanded to know what we were doing on "her' fields (I don't think they were hers, mind). Once we explained where we were going, and that our sacks only contained ropes & abseiling gear, she was happy to let us carry on. She explained there was a concern we were hunt saboteurs "...So jolly good show, carry on chaps!"
Echoing Wardy's experience, I remember a group of us walking across the fields to the top of Ebbor Gorge to do a bit of abseiling when a hunt was on. A couple of riders, dressed in their hunting kit, came galloping towards us & a very posh, indignant lady demanded to know what we were doing on "her' fields (I don't think they were hers, mind). Once we explained where we were going, and that our sacks only contained ropes & abseiling gear, she was happy to let us carry on. She explained there was a concern we were hunt saboteurs "...So jolly good show, carry on chaps!"
tomferry
Well-known member
tony from suffolk said:
We have got very similar issues locally in the aspect of hunting causing issues but are problems sadly stretch far worse , this removes any chance of permission because the mines are in pheasant pens and they are the only mines for a good 60 miles from us so we have to travel , when we have been stopped and turned away they always think are bags are for stealing their birds and we have tried a lot of times to reason with them for permission it will never happen now if this law goes through .
