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What should be brought out?

M

mikem

Well-known member
The Yorkshire Dales aren't natural, there should be a lot more trees there depositing a lot more wood underground - the little that is washed in is often removed by cavers to prevent passages being blocked, but how much impact does this have on the creatures living underground - we have no idea...

Mike
 
Pitlamp

Pitlamp

Well-known member
So, Dales caves tend to be "clean washed"? That reference above just serves to demonstrate that people who think they know a subject may actually be wrong (with absolutely no disrespect to those who alluded to this).

Here's an example; few people would disagree that the Kingsdale Master Cave is "clean washed" - right? But if you continue downstream into the phreatic zone there is a huge amount of junk, all the way to Keld Head. We're talking tangled rope, wellies by the dozen (I once got a matching pair), cast off old boiler suits (been through all the pockets - nowt worth having) and I'm still using a fine pair of overtrousers which came out of there some time ago. In my case I do try and shift what I can carry out (bearing in mind that one is already heavily overloaded when diving in such places) and, on more than one occasion, I've reunited people with valued personal effects.

But the point is many cavers' perspectives are limited by their own personal experience. The vadose KMC is lovely and clean but this is very much at the expense of the phreatic zone . . . .

For this reason I have some reservations about Cookie's (otherwise excellent) suggestion of deciding on a slogan by a simple vote on here. At least some respondents may not be in a position to cast a vote wisely; the results need to be interpreted quite carefully.
 
I

Inferus

New member
It certainly raised a smile (or perhaps a mild chuckle) reading Pitlamps encounters in Keld Head (or downstream KMC/phreatic), especially finding a matching pair of wellies! It's easy to concoct a scene in ones head of some poor unfortunate somehow losing both wellies and the ensuing misery of exiting Valley Entrance. Rather them than me.  :cry:

It's possible a small portion of crap (albeit sometimes useful crap) washed in to the sump might be from a flood/rescue scenario but the remainder sounds like idleness. Maybe to go alongside whatever conservation slogan used on here we need to reiterate an even better one: bring out whatever you take in..

mikem said:
The Yorkshire Dales aren't natural, there should be a lot more trees there depositing a lot more wood underground - the little that is washed in is often removed by cavers to prevent passages being blocked, but how much impact does this have on the creatures living underground - we have no idea...
Click to expand...
The majority of trees were cleared a very long time ago so it's likely the damage has already been done?

Anyway, isn't this thread getting a little over the top? The replies from both sides becoming more contrived!


I think it's fair to say we all know what should come out without question; completely useless rusty gear, sweety wrappers, oversuit patches, farm tubs/bags, a glove, a welly, a kneepad, underpants(?), a mouldy sandwich, bottles, cans etc. Just a few random items I've seen on my travels over the years (and I've spent most of my time in the "clean washed Dales", non in sumps I hasten to add).
Digging gear of any kind - different story, should always be questioned before removal, even if it's been unused for a while..

 
Badlad

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
Pitlamp said:
Here's an example; few people would disagree that the Kingsdale Master Cave is "clean washed" - right? But if you continue downstream into the phreatic zone there is a huge amount of junk, all the way to Keld Head. We're talking tangled rope, wellies by the dozen (I once got a matching pair), cast off old boiler suits (been through all the pockets - nowt worth having) and I'm still using a fine pair of overtrousers which came out of there some time ago. In my case I do try and shift what I can carry out (bearing in mind that one is already heavily overloaded when diving in such places) and, on more than one occasion, I've reunited people with valued personal effects.
Click to expand...

I do hope you made exhaustive enquiries before removing that gear ;) Somebody may have been relying on it.  It was a few years ago now but I did see a naked rambler down the bottom of Kingsdale heading over to Chapel le Dale.  Hope it wasn't his.... :confused:
 
Pitlamp

Pitlamp

Well-known member
:LOL:

Nice one Badlad!

Just one point, for Inferus; another good post from you above. But - I suspect that actually we're all on the same "side" really . . . . .    :)
 
I

Inferus

New member
Very true, Pitlamp. Same "side" wanting caves clear of unwanted clutter, just differing viewpoints on what should stay and go and how to approach it.. Regardless of viewpoint or slogans etc it's a great idea and has brought conservation well and truly in to the spotlight!  (y)

Anyway, best go and polish my gear, otherwise I'll be looking tatty entering all these clean and tidy caves!
 
P

Peter Burgess

New member
True conservation is changing the mindset of cavers who abandon stuff in caves so that initiatives like this would be limited to nothing more than clearing up surface rubbish that get washed in by storms etc. As long as we are removing things left by others without any plan to sort it out after the end of a project, then we haven't achieved much. There should be as strong a focus on conserving caves when projects are active as there is here in this scheme to clear up the junk afterwards. The street litter campaigns focus on not dropping the litter in the first place, not on encouraging everyone to pick up stuff dropped by other people.
 
K

Kenilworth

New member
Peter Burgess said:
True conservation is changing the mindset of cavers who abandon stuff in caves so that initiatives like this would be limited to nothing more than clearing up surface rubbish that get washed in by storms etc. As long as we are removing things left by others without any plan to sort it out after the end of a project, then we haven't achieved much. There should be as strong a focus on conserving caves when projects are active as there is here in this scheme to clear up the junk afterwards. The street litter campaigns focus on not dropping the litter in the first place, not on encouraging everyone to pick up stuff dropped by other people.
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Yes exactly. This is why there are the separate words "conservation" and "restoration". Restoration is important, but real conservation would make it much less necessary.
 
cavermark

cavermark

New member
Peter Burgess said:
.... As long as we are removing things left by others without any plan to sort it out after the end of a project, then we haven't achieved much.
Click to expand...

I (and I suspect many others) still feel this is a worthwhile exercise - I pick up any litter I find when out walking in the countryside too.
I think if some people see litter around they are more inclined to leave their own and vice versa if they don't see litter they won't leave any.
 
M

mikem

Well-known member
& as I said on the other thread, the slogan has done it's job & got people talking about & getting on with tidying up caves - so maybe it's not so bad after all !

Mike
 
P

Peter Burgess

New member
cavermark said:
Peter Burgess said:
.... As long as we are removing things left by others without any plan to sort it out after the end of a project, then we haven't achieved much.
Click to expand...

I (and I suspect many others) still feel this is a worthwhile exercise - I pick up any litter I find when out walking in the countryside too.
I think if some people see litter around they are more inclined to leave their own and vice versa if they don't see litter they won't leave any.
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I have never said or implied that it was not worthwhile. But without curing the root cause, the scheme will run indefinitely.
 
graham

graham

New member
Chocolate fireguard said:
Graham. Now your attention is back on this post, any chance of a response to the request I made in my reply #93 on 7 August?
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Sorry, forgot all about it. No quote, it was me and was not meant to be a rigorous mathematical treatment but more a simple comparison. It is certainly not the case that a single person moving through a highly decorated passage would produce exactly the same degree of mayhem as a car going off the road.

However, in a high energy environment such as a temperate woodland, the damage done would have largely vanished under new growth in a season or two, whereas cutting that sort of swathe through a low energy decorated chamber, say, the Green Lake Grotto in Withyhill (see Duncan S's photos in another thread) would cause damage that would still be visible decades after the event and may never wholly be repaired naturally.

from a conservation point of view, the best place to take clumsy novices is a high-energy stream passage such as the OFD 2 streamway - if only there was a direct surface entrance to it.
 
graham

graham

New member
Chocolate fireguard said:
Well OK.
I confess to being disappointed that the research backing your post fell short of what many of us have come to expect from a retired forum hero.
Click to expand...

Feet of clay, I know. I do try not to muddy things with them, though.
 
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