When is a callout time not a callout time.

[seamoose]

Regardless of whether the group is club, private or commercial, I would rather not have an hour grace for callouts. An hour could be the difference between life and death, especially if hypothermia is involved, or entrapment.

I think you've missed the point that people have been making.... they aren't adding an hour on to the 'call out' time, but on to the time the party are expected back. (ie. time party expected back + 1 hour = 'call out' time).

 

[graham]

Regardless of whether the group is club, private or commercial, I would rather not have an hour grace for callouts. An hour could be the difference between life and death, especially if hypothermia is involved, or entrapment.

I think you've missed the point that people have been making.... they aren't adding an hour on to the 'call out' time, but on to the time the party are expected back. (ie. time party expected back + 1 hour = 'call out' time).

So what do you do if leaving a call out with a friend? Do you say "if I've not contacted you by X get help" or do you say "if I've not contacted you by X wait a while and then get help"?

 

[Brains]

Regardless of whether the group is club, private or commercial, I would rather not have an hour grace for callouts. An hour could be the difference between life and death, especially if hypothermia is involved, or entrapment.

I think you've missed the point that people have been making.... they aren't adding an hour on to the 'call out' time, but on to the time the party are expected back. (ie. time party expected back + 1 hour = 'call out' time).

So what do you do if leaving a call out with a friend? Do you say "if I've not contacted you by X get help" or do you say "if I've not contacted you by X wait a while and then get help"?

A "due out" time and a "callout time" are being viewed as a similar thing, this is not the case. If you leave a time with a third party, on a notice board or elsewhere, YOU need to be clear which one YOU are specifing, as does the person you may be relying on. Have the non-caving recipients been fully briefed about what you expect of them, and the potential seriousness of your faith in thier abilities?

 

[Peter Burgess]

Are some people being deliberately stupid in their replies?

The answer to the question in the title of this topic is "When it's an estimated time out and the callout time has been prearranged to be a set time later".

 

[ianball11]

Are some people being deliberately stupid in their replies?

Ha! that's funny.

Callout is something I have only missed once and that is because I view it as the time someone will call for a cave rescue and need to be out to let them know we're fine. 

Reading this makes me want to take note of car reg numbers more seriously as I usually just describe the car, blue fiat or black golf etc.  doesn't take much to read a number plate.

Ian B.

 

[Maisie Syntax]

Walking down the fell last saturday (5pm) and met a couple of people heading up the hill. They wanted to know if we were the people that had been down the mineshaft as they'd seen a rope going down into some old stopes earlier on in the day. Seems they were going to call out rescue if the rope had still been there.
Nice that they were showing concern, but it could have escalated into taking up resources that may have been needed elsewhere.

 

[mak]

Regardless of whether the group is club, private or commercial, I would rather not have an hour grace for callouts. An hour could be the difference between life and death, especially if hypothermia is involved, or entrapment.

Can you imagine the public outcry and subsequent effects on caving if little Johnny had died as a direct result of rescuers waiting for an hour because of "standard procedure"?

I usually arrange a callout with my wife who will, if no contact is made at the scheduled time,  drive up to the pre arranged car park to see if we are genuinely late or have simply forgotten to ring. 

I wish people would actually read the preceding posts.

It is quite easy really - at Penwyltt you are asked to write down your estimated time back at the hut (ETA) the call out time is = ETA + 1 hour

Other systems ask you to write down your call out time, and most cavers estimate their trip time and then add an additional period of time to derive their call out time - how exactly does this differ!!

Do not confuse call out time with estimated out time - systems differ it is important to understand that.

Oh and in your case you are adding delay - if your callout time is exceeded then surely your wife should initiate the callout - otherwise the time taken for her to travel to the cave entrance is unwarranted delay.

 

[Sally-J]

Are some people being deliberately stupid in their replies?

The answer to the question in the title of this topic is "When it's an estimated time out and the callout time has been prearranged to be a set time later".

Agreed but to avoid any chance of more (!!) confusion I'd give the answer as "Never. Make sure you don't get confused with an estimated time out and a call out".

Personally I like to choose the length of time between my estimated time out and call out. An hour isn't much if you're doing a long trip with difficult navigation. However, if the instructions on the board are clear then I'm quite capable of doing the maths and extending my estimated time out to give more leeway.

 

[Londoncaver]

Since the policy is very clearly stated on the board where you stick details of your trip, I would have thought  cavers of all people would be able to read it, use their commonsense, and make any necessary allowances when deciding what time they put on the card. It's a straightforward set up, and SWCC duty officers seem to keep a close eye on groups that are approaching call-out etc (No, I'm not a SWCC member.)
Also "Little Johnny" shouldn't be in OFD - there's no access for commercial caving or novices.

 

[damian]

Also "Little Johnny" shouldn't be in OFD - there's no access for commercial caving

I agree.

... or for novices

I disagree.

 

[Les W]

Novices are permitted in OFD, I believe the recommended ratio is one novice to two experienced cavers.
I also believe that there is no age limit either.

 

[Londoncaver]

Apologies - misinformed on this point.

 

[graham]

Novices are permitted in OFD, I believe the recommended ratio is one novice to two experienced cavers.

Which, in itself, would preclude its use by virtually all instructed groups. 

 

[cap n chris]

And freshers.

 

[graham]

And freshers.

We have, and regularly do, run trips with exactly that ratio.  :ang:

 

[ian.p]

So what do you do if leaving a call out with a friend? Do you say "if I've not contacted you by X get help" or do you say "if I've not contacted you by X wait a while and then get help"?

well seing as theyre your freind you can leave whatever instructions you like with them :

 

[Bob Mehew]

I heard from a reliable source who could not recall the detail (so I won't embarrass him / her ) that the SWCC system was adopted by them in response to a Coroner's recommendation following a fatality in the 70s.  Does that help jog anyone's memory to answer the question as to why the system was started?