Hello

I?m a university student studying outdoor leadership at the University of Cumbria. As part of my course I have to design and develop an item of kit/technology for the outdoors. As a keen caver, I have decided that I will develop the caving suit. I hope to design a caving suit with some sort of knee and elbow protection included into the suit.

Some ideas I have had are:

To have pockets on the inside of the suit to slide in foam into the knee and elbow section.

To glue and stitch pads onto the outside of the over suit.

If possible I would like some of your opinions on the advantage and disadvantages of these ideas, or if you have any ideas, I?d love to know them.


Many Thanks
Jack Loftus 

Insertable internal knee pads already exist but it's not a bad idea (it's not a commercial idea, though, since it's better for knee pads to wear out rather than the knees of your oversuit since replacing your pads is cheaper than replacing the suit); for the same reason an integral external knee pad glued on to it (if you can find a glue which works) is a palaver-in-the-making when the pad wears out but the suit doesn't, since you've then got to affix new pads.

Previous (very) similar thread here:

http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=9528.0

I like the idea of replaceable padding in an inside pocket, it would allow putting extra padding in for particularly knee-hostile caves, and you haven't got the problem of separate pads which are prone to slip, or get caught on pointy rocks.
Of course, the outer surface would still be prone to wear, so maybe an extra layer of plastic would also be needed - hmm, is it starting to get too thick now ?

Jason - in knee-hostile caves many cavers will wear two sets of pads, and to avoid snagging you wear them underneath your oversuit.

My oversuits have always gone first by the arse splitting open. I don't have a big bum! Does anyone else find the same thing? Is there any way to improve this area?

Have talked with a materials supplier and suggested that a heavy duty hard-wearing abrasion-resistant material which stretches (important point, this last one) would result in seams not being pulled apart as any load/pull would be dissipated. Trouble is, at the moment such a material is not (known) to be available. They're looking at some Eastern and Far Eastern trade fayres later in the year. Fingers crossed the holy grail of caving suit materials will be found one day!

Hi Jack,

If you put internal pockets for extra padding, allow for water to drain out by perhaps including gaps in the stitching.

I always wear Knee and elbow pads on the outside, as mentioned before it prolongs the life of the oversuit. But what would possibly be a good idea is to have a couple of vertical strips of velcro to prevent the knee pad from slipping whilst the usual straps secure them to the knee.

Some good features of the various oversuits I currently use:-

Wide velcro up the front as on the Adventure Verticale and Meander suits.
Taped bum seam as on the Warmback.
Large single extra layer of material over the bum area from the waist to 6" down the leg and round to each side seam as on the AV.
Extra layer of material from knee to shin as on the AV.
Large breast pocket.
Shoulder pocket as Warmbac.
Integral hood stowed in the collar as AV & Meander.
Neoprene cuffs as Warnbac, not so keen on the velcro wrap of the AV & Meander cuffs.
The Warmbac oversuit is very robust, but does shrink with use and cleaning and doesn't stay waterproof for as long as I would like it to. Old Warmbacs get down graded to digging oversuits and used to protect wetsuit on very wet trips.
Extra diamond shaped piece of material under the croth (as on the Warmbac)  gives more flexibilty without stressing the seams.

Peter Burgess said:

My oversuits have always gone first by the arse splitting open. I don't have a big bum! Does anyone else find the same thing? Is there any way to improve this area?

Click to expand...

The Adventure Verticale oversuit has a one piece extra layer of material that covers the bum area from the waist to about 6" down the legs and round to the side seams. This means that there is no vulnerable seam to wear out.

The Warmbac suit has a taped rear centre seam.

Before I use a new Warmbac oversuit, I allways run bead of Aquasure over all the vunerable seams. This helps prevent the fold on the seam abraiding and splitting.
Go for the larger 28g tube and store the tube once opened in the freezer, it keeps an awful lot longer.

Maj.

Cavemanjack said:

or if you have any ideas, I?d love to know them.

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Caving gear for women would be nice:

1) longer zip. I can use a she-wee with my furry, but my Meander zip doesn't go far enough down to get the she-wee into watertight position

2) most women are as wide across the hips as across the shoulder. To wear a male-shaped suit with wider shoulders and narrower hips, you end up getting a larger size, which therefore has longer legs, so that the main purpose of your kneepads becomes to hold your trouser legs up! (and for this you have to put them on the outside!). Or maybe I'm just short and fat.

The problem with built in knee pads like this is that they have a tendancy to migrate round the side and it becomes a pain to keep them in place.

I think on inbuilt knee pads I would be putting some neoprene knee pads over the outside anyway to keep everything in place, which kinda defeats the point of in built ones.

Built-in knee pads have been in and out of fashion (if there is such a thing) for decades.  Of far more importance than simple add-ons to an existing suit design is a re-concepting of cave suit design altogether.  Innovations such as expanding/contracting elasticized gussets round the waist, articulated elbows and knees, etc. allow for a snug fit without restricting movement.  As far as I know no big manufacturers make them, but some small custom-builders do; I have had such suits, and will never buy a commercial suit again.  Moving seams away from stress/stretch points is important too.  A fair examination of these ideas appeared in The Canadian Caver #66, p. 28.

Peter Burgess said:

I don't have a big bum! Does anyone else find the same thing? Is there any way to improve this area?

Click to expand...

Maybe eat more fatty foods...?

I have a pair of work trousers with in built knee pad pockets which feed in from the bottom & close off by velcro.  Rather neat for not getting grit into.  But would the stitching wear down in rub areas? 

Also check on how well the legs will fit over wellies.  My over suit is very tight to get down over my wellies, which keeps it in place but does not make a water tight seal.  Perhaps some form of a take in like one has on decent trousers?  (I should add I can't pull my suit on over my wellies; it is far to small.)

Gear in a breast pocket enlarges my already over weight frame and make it more difficult to pass through tight places.  Put pockets some where where they do not enlarge one's profile in squeezes.

Poor quality velcro fluffy side wears out and looses grip.

Should the suit be waterproof?  I am not sure but it certainly should be water resistant.  So neoprene cuffs is necessary and I think a hood rather than neoprene collar as they just don't seem to work on me.

Bob Mehew said:

Gear in a breast pocket enlarges my already over weight frame and make it more difficult to pass through tight places.  Put pockets some where where they do not enlarge one's profile in squeezes.

Click to expand...

Good point.  I'd like an accessible inside pocket (mebbe under the armhole for the reason Bob says) to store small items - and Mars bars - which are apt to get wet or crushed in an outside pocket.

An inside pocket above the harness belt but below the ribs would seem to be a good place - on some of us there is a fairly squashy bit there. Could be accessed through the Velcro closure.

Also pit vents, like mountain jackets may be good

And of course we would expect this to be the cheapest suit on the market too!

I've been thinking about the ideal caving suit for a while now, never done anything about them mind. These are all based on a "warmbac/phenix/AV/beaver" type fabric suit as opposed to a PVC/meander/Boil in the bag which i have never caved in.

KNEES:
Internal pockets for knee/elbow pads may be a good idea i have heard of people using them but i can aslo see the dis advantages pepole mentioned about increased suit wear / the pads moving around.  Maybe loops (I say loops, tubes of fabric is what I mean, a thin loop would be ripped off in a heart beat) that could be fed over a conventional knee pad straps this might stop the kneepad moving so much (mine tend to get dragged down on to my lower leg.) this could even be done as an odd shaped pocket with a hole/ window in it so that the suit covers the edges of the pad wich may reduce the amount of gravel  the knee pad scoops up that then gets between the knee and the pad.

HARNESS HOLES:
cap 'n chris, has previously posted a suit with a built in chest harness (8th and 12th post in the mendip wezzit thread: http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=11013.0). This sounds like a good idea prehaps the suit have cleverly placed holes, prehaps with a fabric backing strip to stop drafts/fast water ingress, for the attachment loops for a harness and chest harness to be passed though so they can be warn underneath, reducing ware on the harness and snagging potential.

POCKETS:
I like the pocket on the arm (ala warmbac) but prehaps size it so it can hold a spare spelio head lamp battery (I find you can in a warm back but not in a phenix wich is a bit of a pain)

CUFFS:
I like the wet suit cuffs on the warmbac and phenix (altho the warmbac ones are nicer).

FASTENING:
I like the purely velcro fastening of the phenix. Warmbac zips can get full of mud becoming a right swine to move.

ABRASION/REINFORCING:
I Prefer a thick fabric as i tend to cave by bouncing of the walls a bit. I don't know if anyones noticed this but recently suit fabric seams to have got less threads per inch and feel less stiff (old warmbac vs phenix and new warmback). This makes me feel that they won't be quite so abrasion resistant, time will tell tho.

Oddly the first place my last suit went was just over the chest pocket. I suppose this is because I keep stuff in it (e-light, suvivalbag, watch, chock)  and have not exactly a svelte figure. Maybe moving the pocket to a more squishy area would be a good idea. This font hole was then closely followed by my arse, elbows (I dont wear pads), the arm pocket and the seams down the forearms wearing though.

To try to help this I have given by new suit a coating of "tiger seal" (an automotive sealanthttp://www.u-pol.com/product-cat/162/tiger-seal%E2%84%A2-pu-adhesive-and-sealant.htm] [url]http://www.u-pol.com/product-cat/162/tiger-seal%E2%84%A2-pu-adhesive-and-sealant.htm [/url] it goes on like treacle and drys to something not dissimilar to tire rubber.) on all the bits which wore though last time. So far I have only done a couple of trips in it, but things are looking good. dosen't have too much grip in flat out crawls and sliding off things yet the rubber fore arms do seam to grip a bit better. Again time will tell as regard how it wears.

My suit didn't seam to wear in the shin area that AV reinforces, probably just a quirk of my caving style, tho i've yet to see a suit with a hole there.

HOLY GRAIL MATERIAL:

cap 'n chris said:

Have talked with a materials supplier and suggested that a heavy duty hard-wearing abrasion-resistant material which stretches (important point, this last one) would result in seams not being pulled apart as any load/pull would be dissipated. Trouble is, at the moment such a material is not (known) to be available. They're looking at some Eastern and Far Eastern trade fayres later in the year. Fingers crossed the holy grail of caving suit materials will be found one day!

Click to expand...

Sorry cap 'n the chances of this seam quite slim, as a fabric stretches its weave has to open up  (unless its weave was open to start with), the more open the weave the easier it is to abrade and get muck in to abrade the fibers  (i'm told this is why dynamic rope is so much more sensitive to mud compared to semi-stat as its outer is loosely woven as it needs to be able stretch meaning sharp stuff can get to the fragile core more easily).

PRICE:
I suppose this the main factor. Anything wich adds to cost has got to be worth in increased functionality and lifetime.

BRACES:
Other folks have said they like the elastic braces in the phenix suits as it stops "gangsta crotch syndrome" (where the crotch of the suit is level with the knees in case you haven guessed) havent used a phenix enough to comment.

Wow thats a long post, apologies for length but like i say i've been thinking over the perfect suit for a while now and i might as well put it up here as if someone sees a good idea they might put it into production and it might be some use to you Jack.

On the other hand I may have just wasted everyones time...

n thing n.

Oversuit fantasist and bore.

N thingy N, fantasize no longer!....

http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=11481.0

I once "repaired" a warmbac suit with a piece of pond liner butyl cut and glued like a giant pair of pants into the bum area. As well as prolonging the suit's life for a few months more an unexpected bonus was when leaning, sliding or sitting in caves the rubbery liner made for a very cosy and padded bum. 

I also think new material is going to lead us into the oversuit design of the future. I've got some type of kevla gloves that are pretty cheap, nice n thin, very flexible, and extremely tough. Kinda like these. If they can wistand what our hands do, i'm sure they'll be better resisting than the current oversuit materials. And if they last three times as long and cost <?150 it'd be well worth it.

How about kevlar reinforcement areas (arse, elbows, knees)  over courdura?