C@rb!de

Hatstand

New member
:eek: Sorry didn't mean to swear!  :ang:

I know this is an emotive issue for some but can anyone please pass on any learned wisdom regarding said nasty stuff and using it?

APART FROM the obvious "DON'T" and "TAKE IT WITH YOU" and all the predictable stuff  :coffee:

Being considered nasty the only previous threads (Yes I looked SamT  :tease:) have been about how evil the stuff is not constructive help on use.

I KNOW its probably an old subject but hell we were all beginners once... ...me its my third go  :clap:
 

Les W

Active member
Carbide is fine ;)

It is an acceptable way of lighting your way around most caves around the world, it is not carbide that is the problem but cavers misuse of it. :mad:

On expeditions a decent carbide generator doubles as an emergency stove and a hot water bottle to get you out the sh*t.
Don't be scared to use carbide in the UK caves where it is not formally banned, just use it sensibly, you can find guidelines on its use easily enough and although as you quite rightly pointed out it is emotive, it is NOT illegal, don't let the PC types force it out of use. The light from a carbide lamp is superb and will light up a huge area unlike the various electric options (It occurs to me that batteries are actually quite nasty for the environment as well and nobody objects to them) :-\

Learned wisdom
Fettling your light gives you plenty of opportunity for a rest, or to let somebody else go ahead (nasty wet bit coming up) or just a chance of a quick warm off the generator.
Tuck the generator inside your oversuit at cold wet draughty pitches to warm up whilst hanging around, luxury :sneaky:
Give the generator a big shake and rev up the flame to illuminate the whole place at the bottom of big pitches - it scares the willies off me if I can see how far down it is :eek:
When you suddenly become aware of a warm feeling in your helmet, you smell plastic burning and the whole area suddenly lights up really brightly then your gas hose is probably alight :-[
Water resevoirs filled with urine still work well, but stink to high heaven :clap:
When abseiling, don't look directly at the rope, remember it is the only thing stopping you from demonstrating gravity (9.8Ms2 ;)), burning the rope is bad  :chair:
Carbide is fun, useful, annoying, warm, explosive, dangerous, friendly, life saving and above all emotive. Like most things in life it is fine until it is misused.
Store your spare carbide on a trip in a watertight but flexible container, a carbide pig is ideal, a metal box (ammo tin) or brittle plastic tube (BDH or Rocket tube) is not - see the Slit Pot incident in one of the Descent back issues - a very funny story that all to easily could have ended in tragedy :read:

Apres caving - chuck a few rocks of carbide into a plastic lemonade bottle, partly filled with water, screw on the lid, throw the bottle a good distance away, wait (Safety disclaimer - Never return to a lit firework, or a charged carbide bomb, boys and girls :read:)


 

paul

Moderator
I agree with Les - before LED technology and extended running times, if you hadn't an easy way of recharging electric cells, carbide was the way to go. Plus it has the additional benefits of maybe helping when you are cold.

I use LED lighting nowadays mostly but still get the old "ceiling-burner" out every now and then. There is still nothing to beat the light you get from a separate  generator carbide light.

And, yes, some pratts did and do dump carbide wate sometines (ever seen the pile near Camp 1 in the Gouffre Berger?) - but that is down to the user, not the light.

Also, as I expected, with more cavers using LEDs, etc. with non-rechargable dry cells, the expended batteries have started to make an appearance underground as well.

Whatever light system you use, take the rubbish out with you!
 

graham

New member
Absolutely, it's the user that is the problem, not the light.

The only comment i would add to the advice above is remember not to leave soot marks all over the place. They do clean off but it takes time and effort.
 

AndyF

New member
I can't really see a place for carbide these days, even on expeditions, since spent carbide (with water in it) weighs more than disposable batteries plus an LED lamp in light-per-weight terms. (...and of course you wouldn't just dump your carbide, even on a multiday expedition....would you...?)

They have all the additional disadvantages: no beam, going out in crawls, frequent attention, burning ropes, soot, smell etc. etc. and no plus points IMO. I demand a lamp that I turn on at the entrance and turn off when I come out...the end...

All in all, as obsolete as candles....I gave away all my carbide gear some years ago, never missed it since....

Andyf

 

Peter Burgess

New member
I don't use carbide anymore, but I have no real objections to other cavers using it, provided it is used sensibly and responsibly, and provided it is not used where we have been asked not to use it. Those who say it is obsolete are speaking for themselves. If you still use it and are happy with it, then clearly you don't consider it obsolete. Every lighting system has an environmental footprint. Battery manufacture, carbide manufacture, battery and carbide disposal, accumulator manufacture - all consume resources. None of us are perfect. Perhaps some of us think we are more perfect than others. I haven't seen anyone using carbide (apart from a demonstration for the curious) for a long time. Perhaps there are places in the UK where it is more commonly used.

The manufacture of calcium carbide is a high energy process.

Calcium carbide (CaC2) is manufactured by heating a lime and carbon mixture to 2000 to 2100°C (3632 to 3812°F) in an electric arc furnace.

I find the smell quite evocative of my earliest caving trips, like the smell of creosote, but that's another story.
 

francis

New member
The manufacture of calcium carbide is a high energy process.

Calcium carbide (CaC2) is manufactured by heating a lime and carbon mixture to 2000 to 2100°C (3632 to 3812°F) in an electric arc furnace.

In norway where i live there is a smelting works in Odda, they used to make calcium carbide as a biproduct (can't remember what they were making) but they have stopped the production. When the smelting works stopped making whatever they made that had carbide as i biproduct the norwegian caving org bought a huge drum of the stuff to sell to it's members as that was the only supply of carbide. If the carbide that cavers use in the UK use is a biproduct as well then i would considor it more environomentally friendly?

Is there any industrial use for carbide or is it only cavers that find it useful?

Francis :D
 

graham

New member
Calcium carbide is produced by electrostatic discharge through a mixture of lime and carbon at high temperature. The compound reacts vigorously with water to form acetylene. This reaction is the basis of the industrial manufacture of dissolved acetylene (DA), and is one of the modern industrial uses for calcium carbide. Calcium carbide is also used as a fuel in steelmaking to extend the scrap ratio to liquid iron depending on economics. It is also used as a powerful deoxidizer at ladle treatement facilities.

From Wikipedia
 
H

hoehlenforscher

Guest
Carbide might be made in an eleictric arc furnace in this country but when I worked in Tunisia they used to make it by filling oil drums with limestone and burying them under a pile of tyres! :eek: The carbide was the main source of light in the nearby PB-Zc mines. This is not very long ago.

I still use my carbide on Austrian Expeditions where the ambient temperature is 1 degree and the trip duration is greater than 10 hours. Especially on surveying trips where you move only slowly. Just about everyone I cave with now has a secondary LED setup but I for one find the light real horrible.

As for an industrial use of carbide, AFAIK it is used to produce the Acetylene gas that goes in the bottles of Oxy-acytelene welding kits.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
In a river cave in South Wales last week I commented that our entire group were using LED lights, and what is more, every single one of them was of a different design/manufacturer: 21st Century caving lighting technology is now sufficiently tried-and-tested that we have choices with a variety of pros and cons.

My 2p.

Carbide should no longer be used with the exception of expedition usage.

The weight of the generator is now offset by heat-packs which you can carry instead and which, when combined with the weight of your LED lighting system, still adds to less overall weight to carry underground; so even for expeditions carbide is becoming borderline.

Whenever you see someone using carbide you should ask them if they travel by horse and cart.
 

Stu

Active member
Hatstand said:
:eek: Sorry didn't mean to swear!  :ang:

I know this is an emotive issue for some but can anyone please pass on any learned wisdom regarding said nasty stuff and using it?

APART FROM the obvious "DON'T" and "TAKE IT WITH YOU" and all the predictable stuff   :coffee:

Being considered nasty the only previous threads (Yes I looked SamT  :tease:) have been about how evil the stuff is not constructive help on use.

I KNOW its probably an old subject but hell we were all beginners once... ...me its my third go  :clap:

Why do you ask? Is it somthing you want to try? If so, I'd suggest just do it. No one on here is going to convince you good or bad.
 

Peter Burgess

New member
Why do you ask? Is it somthing you want to try? If so, I'd suggest just do it. No one on here is going to convince you good or bad.

Exactly. However, you will have to borrow the kit, or buy it, I suspect, as I think the only lamps for hire will be those new-fangled electric thingies.
 

Peter Burgess

New member
A new concept. Heritage caving. For a modest fee, professionally-trained cavers will fit you out with all the equipment of 30 years ago. Sweat your excess fat off, caving in an ill-fitting wetsuit, crawling round dusty-dry passages, climbing 150 foot ladders, all to the friendly glow of your brass stinky, loosely attached to an adapted plastic or cardboard site helmet.

Enjoy!

 

Hughie

Active member
Peter Burgess said:
Sweat your excess fat off, caving in an ill-fitting wetsuit, crawling round dusty-dry passages, climbing 150 foot ladders, all to the friendly glow of your brass stinky, loosely attached to an adapted plastic or cardboard site helmet.

Enjoy!

Errrm - have things moved on from that??

I need to get out more!!!
 
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