This was in the Assholes in Goatchurch thread - it was getting too far offtopic so I have started a new one...

cap 'n chris said:

Cavers never argue!
Right, here's one:
Can anyone highlight any examples of well constructed, albeit poorly spelt, thoughtful, logical and thought-provoking observations written by dyslexics or, call me cynical, is the condition generally just being used as a scapegoat by the academically lacking?

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Yes. There are two people in my club who are dyslexic - both highly intelligent, and most of what they write is usually worth reading - albeit with difficulty at times.
Interestingly there are different forms of dyslexia - I could easily tell these two apart by the type of errors they make.

There are three other people who I suspect are too - a surprisingly high occurence.

Even more interesting, if you look up dyslexia and related syndromes on the net you will note that there is often an association with other 'peculiarities'. Some of these relate closely to caving, a liking for confined or dark places, OCD, individuality of thought and actions or hobbies.

I suspect for the reasons above that amongst 'people like us' there may be a higher than average number of dyslexics than in the general population.

I put peculiarities in quotes as whilst perhaps 'abnormal' these are also the qualities that make good cavers, explorers and so on, so not necessarily a bad thing at all.

DP: I did wonder about you - generally the information and intellectual content of what you write is at odds with your spelling and grammar making me suspect that you were.

There is another (several in fact) on this forum (I won't name this person) who does not appear to be dyslexic yet refuses to write in 'normal' grammar and spelling and this I can only ascribe to laziness.

Just to put things into context I have copied across the other pertinent responses from the other thread:

andymorgan said:

It is thought that Churchill and Einstein were dyslexic.

Being bad at writing doesn't mean one is of low intelligence, and being able to write at a high standard doesn't necessarily mean one is of high intelligence: look at this board and journalists from the Sun as examples 

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Anne said:

No one has any problem with dyslexia sufferers. It is those who do not seem to even glance at their comments before posting them. And anyway, I do not believe that there is a condition which means people are unable to put capital I's when talking about oneself.
We all make mistakes when typing, and even checking through what I have written I still miss things. I do look up words in dictionaries if I am unsure how to spell them.
I think that what annoys me (and Graham?) is the lack of effort. DP, you are fine.

Goatchurch, lack of helmets, responsibilities, etc etc (just to keep to the topic!)

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cap 'n chris said:

andymorgan said:

It is thought that Churchill and Einstein were dyslexic.

Being bad at writing doesn't mean one is of low intelligence, and being able to write at a high standard doesn't necessarily mean one is of high intelligence: look at this board and journalists from the Sun as examples 

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I wasn't making a case against intelligent people who happen to be dyslexic; I was making an observation that there appear to be a lot of unintelligent people who, somewhat coincidentally, claim that they aren't to blame since they are dyslexic: occasionally I wonder whether dyslexia is being "used" as an excuse by non-dyslexics who are actually just a bit thick. Do intelligent people who genuinely have dsylexia get slightly peeved when considering whether they are tarred with a brush of ignorance as a result of genuinely ignorant people playing the "Dyslexia Card" to mitigate their inadequacies?

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c**tplaces said:

Thankyou  But Anne, a dyslexic does look like someone who hasn't bothered to make an effort when they have. Missing a capital I and leaving a lower-case is easy to miss, you look but it doesn't register, whole words can be added without spotting them, I didn't have a clue I typed beyond twice till it was posted. Now dictionaries scare the pants of me. Posts take a while to compose, unless I am angry and my eye starts to twitch.

Yes to Cap'n chris's thing - being dyslexic can impede learning simply because its the media were most learning (in schools) occur.

I regally have to attend very technical courses for work to then sit exams. Your given the books then lots of labs and listening to the instructor. Its all written for you, you don't have to take notes apart from little comments. RE-read books several times, pass exam. Easy. Try and listen to a lesson and take notes.... no hope... would I be a better engineer... no. I would be a worse engineer.

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Dyslexia covers a range of conditions or states, to do with difficulty in reading and writing,that only over recent years have had more recognition. Its likely that whatever the `umbrella' term dyslexia refers to is not really fully understood.

Mr Fell said:

Dyslexia covers a range of conditions or states, to do with difficulty in reading and writing,that only over recent years have had more recognition. Its likely that whatever the `umbrella' term dyslexia refers to is not really fully understood.

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Indeed. It seems that there is more than one way to wire up a working brain.

OFGS. Are we really going down the 'dyslexics as intellectual malingerers' path again? 

I'm a cognitive psychologist by trade: PM me for peer reviewed research and let's cut this one off at the knees.

Am I missing something here. Are all people who seem to be unable to write a sentance without making a mistake deemed as dyslexic?
If not, then it has been made clear several times that it is not dyslexics that are being criticised.

:chair:

Sentence.

 


God, it's quiet tonight. I really ought to find something more productive to do.

Sid Weighells Dog said:

OFGS. Are we really going down the 'dyslexics as intellectual malingerers' path again? 

I'm a cognitive psychologist by trade: PM me for peer reviewed research and let's cut this one off at the knees.

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I thought we were going down the route of non-intellectual malingers using 'dyslexia' as an excuse  for being sloppy. It's not the same thing.

I find it really somewhat wry that this thread started with DP criticising me (again).

I would have thought that any genuinely dyslexic but intellectually committed individual would appreciate the use of a tool that would make their posts more comprehensible to others.

Surely this forum is all about communication and a tool that assists in improving communication would be appreciated by all. 

Sid Weighells Dog said:

OFGS. Are we really going down the 'dyslexics as intellectual malingerers' path again? 

I'm a cognitive psychologist by trade: PM me for peer reviewed research and let's cut this one off at the knees.

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No, we're not.
Get off your high horse and go back and re-read what I have written - it says nothing of the sort.
My guess is you saw part of my post, failed to read it all or just skim read it and jumped to the wrong conclusion.
I was making a point that has not been previously discussed AFAIAA.

For the record - dyslexia is a poorly understood but genuine and often easily recognised phenomenon.
Intellectual malingering is also easily recognised.
It is very easy to tell them apart.
One is excusable, the other is or should be jumped on.


As a cognitive psychologist you should perhaps be aware of the 'related syndromes'.

graham said:

I find it really somewhat wry that this thread started with DP criticising me (again).

I would have thought that any genuinely dyslexic but intellectually committed individual would appreciate the use of a tool that would make their posts more comprehensible to others.

Surely this forum is all about communication and a tool that assists in improving communication would be appreciated by all. 

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Hmmm, I both agree and disagree...
As someone who is not dyslexic and has a reasonable command of English I check my own posts by eye, however 'reverse-dyslexia'* makes it hard to spot one's mistakes.
Personally I don't like spell-checkers, they invariably have a US bias, and often a poorer vocabulary and understanding of grammar than I do.
I am not by nature a lazy person when it comes to getting an idea across, however I am often in a hurry and don't have the time or inclination to use a tool that I abhor anyway.

*The ability of the brain to pre-process the written word so when you mentally parse it for meaning you no longer see the errors. This is why non-dyslexic people miss mistakes that may be blindingly obvious to others.

I have to be honest and admit that most of my spell-checker experience is based on the one within MS-Word, it p**ses me off no end when it tries to tell me how to speak, spell or write my own native language!
I rarely use it except to catch the occasional howler.

For someone who is dyslexic I suspect that the mental effort of having to distinguish between what the spell checker perceives as a mistake and the correct word is too much effort - and perhaps people in this situation might not like to have it rubbed in their face everytime.

HAHAHA - I just spell checked this post.
It has picked up no genuine errors except one in Graham's comment which I have quoted, and there it suggests that he should have spelt 'criticising' with a Z - as I said a US bias.

And now it is objecting to the word 'spelt' - presumably it wants me to spell it as 'spelled'.

For someone who is genuinely dyslexic what are they going to make of that?

One of the people I know who is dyslexic rarely mis-spells words, what he tends to do is use a word that sounds similar but has a different meaning. Here a spell checker is of limited use they rarely evaluate the context of words correctly.

Won off the people I no who is dyslexic rarely mis-spells words, when he tends so do is use a word then sounds similar butt had a different meaning. Hear a spell checker is off limited use they rarely evaluate the context of words correctly.

More interestingly it did not find a single error in the above sentence with its deliberate errors.

So maybe you have a point in principle, but in practice it is utterly unworkable.

graham said:

I find it really somewhat wry that this thread started with DP criticising me (again).

I would have thought that any genuinely dyslexic but intellectually committed individual would appreciate the use of a tool that would make their posts more comprehensible to others.

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1. Sorry, I think last time was about spelling too.

...but...

2. Does feel like its rubbed in my face Dep covered the reasons why very well.
[quote author=Dep]For someone who is dyslexic I suspect that the mental effort of having to distinguish between what the spell checker perceives as a mistake and the correct word is too much effort - and perhaps people in this situation might not like to have it rubbed in their face everytime.[/quote]This could be perceived as laziness. However a trade off must be made between writing a document for a customer which would require much effort, spell checking, grammer checking, re-reading and having the time to do all this when every other word has a wriggly red line under it. Or forum posts which are semi real time which deserve less time otherwise I would start a post and be 5 replys old before I managed to send it.

Interesting point about the 'abnormalities' linked with dyslexia "liking for confined or dark places, OCD, individuality of thought and actions or hobbies."

Er yeah I find dark places calming, I have been known to fall asleep underground...
OCD Its in the family.
Individuality of thought - I love bashing society and authority which has not earned my respect. - Rightfully so I say

Dep - I read your post carefully (and I agree with it). My post was in reaction to the quote that you posted (ie this bit:  Can anyone highlight any examples of well constructed, albeit poorly spelt, thoughtful, logical and thought-provoking observations written by dyslexics or, call me cynical, is the condition generally just being used as a scapegoat by the academically lacking?). That bit has been done to death. And I'm more than aware of the related syndromes, thanks.

The dyslexic cavers I can handle... they cause no harm to anyone and their errors in written language don't have a negative impact on caving.  In fact, because they don't focus on grammar and language correctness, their information is most likely more realistic.  However, take the caver who has dyscalculia... they are really dangerous.  Imagine the disgruntlement if the caver inflicted picked up a 35 meter rope for a 53 meter pitch... it could cause some tense conversation... or get you to the pub quicker... so it might not be a bad thing in the end.

CN.

I recently saw a post on another forum, poorly constructed and badly spelt. The post finished with an apology for the bad english - the excuse used was that they were only 16. FFS.

In the context of a forum I can see past the spelling, syntax and grammer. I view this form of interaction as more akin to being in a pub and talking over a few beers. Slips of the tongue occur and friendly banter and ribbing ensue. Local ways of speaking, almost dialect if you will, may also raise an eyebrow, but this should not be seen as undue criticism. I would hate to think that potential posters were getting put off because the way they write might draw unwelcome comments. Some of this maybe laziness, some maybe dyslexia, and some may be the influence of alcohol, but these are not top line documents and presentations. See the meaning within the message and live with it

Sid Weighells Dog said:

Dep - I read your post carefully (and I agree with it). My post was in reaction to the quote that you posted (ie this bit:  Can anyone highlight any examples of well constructed, albeit poorly spelt, thoughtful, logical and thought-provoking observations written by dyslexics or, call me cynical, is the condition generally just being used as a scapegoat by the academically lacking?). That bit has been done to death.

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Are/is there any/an example forthcoming?

c**tplaces said:

...
However a trade off must be made between writing a document for a customer which would require much effort, spell checking, grammer checking, re-reading and having the time to do all this when every other word has a wriggly red line under it.
...

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Yes, this is something I meant to add but forgot - in short it isn't really worth the effort to worry too much, especially on a live forum, Brains' point about it being similar to chatting in the pub is very true.
And the written word avoids other complications such as accent or alcohol induced slurring of one's speech.
In fact even badly written dyslexic writing, or even God forbid txt-spk can be easier to understand than the average Geordie or Glaswegian, especially when they're p**sed! (Just kidding!)

Sid Weighells Dog said:

Dep - I read your post carefully (and I agree with it). My post was in reaction to the quote that you posted (ie this bit:  Can anyone highlight any examples of well constructed, albeit poorly spelt, thoughtful, logical and thought-provoking observations written by dyslexics or, call me cynical, is the condition generally just being used as a scapegoat by the academically lacking?). That bit has been done to death. And I'm more than aware of the related syndromes, thanks.

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Cool. And indeed I could highlight several examples but not without identifying those concerned. For those that have direct experience either by having the condition or by dealing with written material from those who do it is a real and genuine thing.

Does anyone recall on the old "Caver's Digest"? There was someone who used to post in "free form" English; that is he used to write a series of clauses or sub-clauses linked by ellipsis but without forming a single coherent sentence. It was unbelievably annoying to (attempt to) read.

It was also certainly not a case of dyslexia or any other similar condition.

Language is a tool used for communication. If its usage is hindering rather than assisting communication then the user may require assistance.