Scott McCrea
New member
Anybody know anything about Kong's new ascenders? They won't be available in the US until spring '09. This is all I have found about them.
Kong Futura Ascenders
- Thread starter Scott McCrea
- Start date
SamT
Moderator
:-\
look a bit shonky to me.
Is it me - or does all Kong stuff look and feel shonky.
Have you ever seen people use Kong stuff regularly, or hear folk saying "yeah, all my kong stuff is the bollox."
me neither.
They just seem to do a really bad job of copying other peoples designs.
couldn't even find a nice new boot to use in their photograph
Having said that - the hand jammer looks small and neat, so it may be possibly be used as a bit of emergency kit, for climbing - (multi pitch/sea cliff/alpine etc. But personally, I'd just carry a tibloc/ropeman/prussic combo for that - smaller, neater/lighter to keep out the way whilst climbing.
look a bit shonky to me.
Is it me - or does all Kong stuff look and feel shonky.
Have you ever seen people use Kong stuff regularly, or hear folk saying "yeah, all my kong stuff is the bollox."
me neither.
They just seem to do a really bad job of copying other peoples designs.
couldn't even find a nice new boot to use in their photograph
Having said that - the hand jammer looks small and neat, so it may be possibly be used as a bit of emergency kit, for climbing - (multi pitch/sea cliff/alpine etc. But personally, I'd just carry a tibloc/ropeman/prussic combo for that - smaller, neater/lighter to keep out the way whilst climbing.
K
ken
Guest
maybe it is just a copy....but the foot jumar are available in right and left :bow: which petzl hasn't
cap n chris
Well-known member
I'd be interested to have a go with these, as some observations arise:
Hand jammer:
1) there's no top-hole for safely clipping the jammer to the rope with a krab
2) the leverage created if the bottom hole is clipped and a lateral loading results
3) what happens to the springed cam in the 2) scenario above
4) how the unit behaves with mud in the works
5) not sure I like the look of the handle grip; too prone to slippage and it's got a pointy bit which sure as eggs is eggs will end up poking you in the ribs sooner or later
6) there is no protective sheild stopping your glove from lipping over the top and becoming wedged in the slot on the opposing side of the rope from the cam. This would potentially render you with (a) an unusable jammer mid-pitch and (b) your glove/hand in a compromised state mid-pitch: p.s. I bet this will happen LOADS of times!
7) cannot be used in conjunction with other kit i.e. to create a pulley jammer hauling rig.
Foot jammer:
1) is the cam manufactured with the same spring as the hand jammer?
2) if so, how much of a fiddle is it to remove from the rope, one-handed... no-handed?
3) how it behaves with mud in the works
Hmm. I'm with SamT - until proven otherwise it looks a bit shonky for caving. I shall probably get one and have a play. Also, their longevity when exposed to the rigours of caving - do they wear out in next to no time, rust up, seize, disintegrate etc..
Hand jammer:
1) there's no top-hole for safely clipping the jammer to the rope with a krab
2) the leverage created if the bottom hole is clipped and a lateral loading results
3) what happens to the springed cam in the 2) scenario above
4) how the unit behaves with mud in the works
5) not sure I like the look of the handle grip; too prone to slippage and it's got a pointy bit which sure as eggs is eggs will end up poking you in the ribs sooner or later
6) there is no protective sheild stopping your glove from lipping over the top and becoming wedged in the slot on the opposing side of the rope from the cam. This would potentially render you with (a) an unusable jammer mid-pitch and (b) your glove/hand in a compromised state mid-pitch: p.s. I bet this will happen LOADS of times!
7) cannot be used in conjunction with other kit i.e. to create a pulley jammer hauling rig.
Foot jammer:
1) is the cam manufactured with the same spring as the hand jammer?
2) if so, how much of a fiddle is it to remove from the rope, one-handed... no-handed?
3) how it behaves with mud in the works
Hmm. I'm with SamT - until proven otherwise it looks a bit shonky for caving. I shall probably get one and have a play. Also, their longevity when exposed to the rigours of caving - do they wear out in next to no time, rust up, seize, disintegrate etc..
Is there even a safety catch on the hand jammer?
To be fair, I doubt the hand jammer is aimed at cavers anyway, but it does look more like something to look at on a dull evening in the pub, laugh at and then forget about.
Was it Kong who did the Croll lookalike with the ribbed yellow frame?
For all I know, that might have been as good as a Croll, or even better, but I still don't recall ever seeing one being used.
To be fair, I doubt the hand jammer is aimed at cavers anyway, but it does look more like something to look at on a dull evening in the pub, laugh at and then forget about.
Was it Kong who did the Croll lookalike with the ribbed yellow frame?
For all I know, that might have been as good as a Croll, or even better, but I still don't recall ever seeing one being used.
Ship-badger
Member
potholer said:
My mate Andy has used one for years. I've never heard him complain about it (but he might be easily pleased).
The thing with them was, even if they'd actually been better on average and cheaper than the Petzl ones, they still wouldn't have been likely to get many sales.
[UK] cavers do generally seem to be fairly conservative when it comes to vertical gear, typically buying what everyone else has, and usually replacing worn-out gear with more of the same.
[UK] cavers do generally seem to be fairly conservative when it comes to vertical gear, typically buying what everyone else has, and usually replacing worn-out gear with more of the same.
I'm presume it's not designed for caving anyway, or at least not mainstream caving.
There are various points that could be added to the list in cap 'n chris's post which would all seem to count against it.
I'd be interested in knowing what the target market was, though.
Excluding cavers, rope access workers and mountaineers, who uses handled ascenders?
Would a mountaineer want a hand ascender like this?
There are various points that could be added to the list in cap 'n chris's post which would all seem to count against it.
I'd be interested in knowing what the target market was, though.
Excluding cavers, rope access workers and mountaineers, who uses handled ascenders?
Would a mountaineer want a hand ascender like this?
underground
Active member
looks to me like a solution for a problem that never needed solving.
Sam - I'm sure you were joking about the boot, but it's possibly the closest a lot of the purchasers will get to a vertical pitch... How many folk do you see at the climbing wall with a brand spanking new Petzl Spatha knife and tibloc on their harness? They should put a krab loop on the packet so it stays nice for eBay when they get into summat else!
I'd post more but I'm on my way out to do some parapente kite surfing on a mountain board (I had the board modified to be a long carving board) - there's a treadmill down the road that claims to replicate the hills of San Francisco. Fortunately they have a bar that I can spout off in.
Sam - I'm sure you were joking about the boot, but it's possibly the closest a lot of the purchasers will get to a vertical pitch... How many folk do you see at the climbing wall with a brand spanking new Petzl Spatha knife and tibloc on their harness? They should put a krab loop on the packet so it stays nice for eBay when they get into summat else!
I'd post more but I'm on my way out to do some parapente kite surfing on a mountain board (I had the board modified to be a long carving board) - there's a treadmill down the road that claims to replicate the hills of San Francisco. Fortunately they have a bar that I can spout off in.
K
ken
Guest
potholer said:
I've changed all my gear from petzl to CT in the last couple of years as needed. It's cheaper (about 20%), the rates (Kn, rope size etc.) are the same and they have a couple of nifty tricks in their equipment
cap n chris
Well-known member
ken said:
Enlightenment much appreciated.
K
ken
Guest
for example the hand jammers....you can push them up to the knot real tight and still open them which is definitively not possible with petzl. I tested this quite a lot and they seem to work better in muddy conditions.easier on the wallet also.
petzl OK crabs, symmetrical oval shaped costs around 13 Euros (where i am) and a CT crab with the same quality costs a little over 6 Euros.
my tackle bags for example i get from AV...they are 20% cheaper than petzl and almost the same quality in more variety.
i find petzl products are good, but very overpriced.......but i guess thats how they pay for their pretty catalog.
CT seems to bring a (i find) a high quality product to the market without all huge marketing advertisements.
petzl OK crabs, symmetrical oval shaped costs around 13 Euros (where i am) and a CT crab with the same quality costs a little over 6 Euros.
my tackle bags for example i get from AV...they are 20% cheaper than petzl and almost the same quality in more variety.
i find petzl products are good, but very overpriced.......but i guess thats how they pay for their pretty catalog.
CT seems to bring a (i find) a high quality product to the market without all huge marketing advertisements.
K
ken
Guest
potholer said:
jep...thats CT
K
ken
Guest
kong has some good pulleys which are good for rescue situations, but i've tried other equipment from them and most of it is average to bad. but as i'm not an expert....
How does the CT ascender manage to jam less against knots?
Is it just easier to pull the cam down, or is it something in the frame geometry (that doesn't look much different to the Petzl design in the pictures.
Current Petzl rope bags seem hugely overpriced, and rather less durable than the various older designs with 2" straps top-to-bottom.
In fact, I'm not sure why people only seem to make bags with adjustable straps, since the last-generation good petzl bag with fixed 2" straps had them exactly the right length, and there were no buckles to concentrate wear.
I suppose the Dragon/Phoenix/Beast designs with field-replaceable 1" lower tapes are a notable exception, but with other bags, it really sucks when they're otherwise sound, but one of the straps has worn through at the buckle or base, and it's a stitching job to fix it.
Is it just easier to pull the cam down, or is it something in the frame geometry (that doesn't look much different to the Petzl design in the pictures.
Current Petzl rope bags seem hugely overpriced, and rather less durable than the various older designs with 2" straps top-to-bottom.
In fact, I'm not sure why people only seem to make bags with adjustable straps, since the last-generation good petzl bag with fixed 2" straps had them exactly the right length, and there were no buckles to concentrate wear.
I suppose the Dragon/Phoenix/Beast designs with field-replaceable 1" lower tapes are a notable exception, but with other bags, it really sucks when they're otherwise sound, but one of the straps has worn through at the buckle or base, and it's a stitching job to fix it.
K
ken
Guest
i don't know how it works actually and its difficult to explain but with the CT ascender i can push the ascender right up into the knot and still open the ascender. its somehow possible to pull out the cam a little to make this possible. you don't notice this unless you are paying attention to what you are doing. My girlfriend has the same ascender and it works the same (not that anyone thinks my ascender is somewhat an unusual example)
i can definitely recommend these ascenders
i can definitely recommend these ascenders
I suppose if the upper teeth on the cam were slightly smaller or smoother, they may allow it to be pulled down more easily.
After all, when an ascender is pushed into a knot, the cam should only be in a 'resting' position on the rope when the frame is against the knot, and only fully bitten-into the rope when the frame is down from the knot.
At least in the days when cams seemed to wear away before the ascender frames, the ease of back prussiking, or freeing up a knot-jammed ascender could vary with subtle cam wear, it may not take a much different initial design to give different performance.
It might also be that there's something in the design of the safety catch.
As Petzl continually change their designs over the years, it does seem that some are easier to open than others, and that could be down to little things like the directions a finger can easily pull in.
The old (eighties) Petzl hand ascenders with the mushroom pin on the catch may well have been easier to open than the current design.
After all, when an ascender is pushed into a knot, the cam should only be in a 'resting' position on the rope when the frame is against the knot, and only fully bitten-into the rope when the frame is down from the knot.
At least in the days when cams seemed to wear away before the ascender frames, the ease of back prussiking, or freeing up a knot-jammed ascender could vary with subtle cam wear, it may not take a much different initial design to give different performance.
It might also be that there's something in the design of the safety catch.
As Petzl continually change their designs over the years, it does seem that some are easier to open than others, and that could be down to little things like the directions a finger can easily pull in.
The old (eighties) Petzl hand ascenders with the mushroom pin on the catch may well have been easier to open than the current design.
