I'm just curious as to how many people don't bother wearing wellies when caving. I'm still quite new to it all, but they strike me as bulky and heavy when filled with water. I tried wearing my kayaking boots when I went out last week, they kept my feet just as warm, although it was down a mine, so didn't get a chance to try climbing in them, but judging from using them on wet rocks above ground it looks promising.



http://www.jackson-sports.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=6757

I quite like the look of the 5.10 Canyoneer, but at ?70, they are a bit on the pricey side.



What do other people use?

My wife didn't until recently. 

Reason one: No ankle support
Reason two: good quality solid well soled wellies were not made small enough, ie ladies and kids wellies are cr@p

But times change.  her feet grew during pregancy so suretreds now fit so she's giving them a try.

However, the main reason for wellies:  they last ten times as long for a fraction of the price... caves kill stiching faster than a beardy caver gets his first pint of ale down his neck.

But there is a problem; I've heard that suretreds are no longer being made without toecaps and no one seems to make decent wellies bigger than size 12 (this is also the case for plastic mountaineering boots)

Also not a wellie fan.

The best I've found is plastic industrial safety boots. They are only ankle high - less water to carry around, comfortable (you can even get them lined) rugged and robust, with good grip, and again relatively cheap while being long lasting. I have used old leather safety boots, which were very comfortable and free - but didn't last that long.

Wellies are definetly the cheapest option.

As a lad I always used to cave in external steel toecap boots, but since getting back into it I have gone with wellies, because that's what everyone else had, but I agree I don't think they are the best. I would like more ankle support and less weight when in and out of water.

I had thought about getting a pair of safety boots (they can be got fairly cheaply ?20-?30) just to see how they got on, but I suspect I would get some pretty old-fashioned looks at home since I seem to have more pairs of boots than Imelda Marcos had shoes.

I know a couple of guys that have 5.10 Canyoneers for Jet Skiing, apart from the cost the things that put me off is they have a couple of fairly bulky buckles which seem likely to snag and wear, and next to no toe protection, so the toe area would also wear out pretty quickly.

I like the look of the ones that you posted the link for, also this guy seems to have given it some thought
http://technology.darkfrontier.us/Wearing/Boots/

Wellies for me..every time

Pro's for wellies..

Cheap - caves tend to wear stuff out very very quickly, so I find a buy cheap, buy regularly attitude helps, I view kneepads/gloves/wellies and to a certain extent over suits as expendable items that will be replaced fairly regularly.

Snag free  - nowt worse on a ladder than having laces/buckles/velcrostraps/eyelets etc snag on the wires. and to some extent - the same applies to your srt footloop/foot jammer.

hi sided therefore no annoying gravel getting down the sides of your ankle and rubbing.

grippy - depending on manufacturer

Easy clean after those muddy derbyshire caves/walk back through all the sheep/cow shit

retain water - this can be seen as a plus. Wetsuit socks work by retaining the water warmed up initially by your body next to the skin. Your worst enemy in a wet suit (or wetsuit socks) is 'flushing' i.e. the contstant replacement of the warm water, with fresh cold.
In a very wet cave with a fast running stream, you end up with a constant flushing effect - your feet are gonna get cold.
Many people melt little drain holes into their wellies, but I reckon that leads to cold feet. Intact wellies help keep that warm water next to your feet.
However - I must admit that a lot of crawling in toecap boots tends to put a hole in the toe anyhow and thus provides natural drainage.
I guess it depends on what type of caving you do most of.

Ankle support - if you ask an expert, good ankle support generally comes from the quality of the sole, not the material around the ankle. I have 'flippy' ankles, but cant think that I've ever, ever, flipped one whilst wearing wellies. A snug fit of a decent pair of wellies i.e. ones with a good sturdy sole such as suretreads provides all the anklesupport you need.
How many fell runners do you see wearing shoes with so called 'ankle support'.



Cons

errr.. I guess new ones fill up with water a bit, its not hard to tip your leg up and drain them though.

I agree with SamT.

Have a look at www.molevalleyfarmers.com - I use the "Border" welly. Cheap as chips, excellent grip. Steel toe caps are optional, but you'll find them a menace.

I've never understood this ankle support business and never needed it. How do you manage outside of a cave?

Regarding filling with water - drill holes in them. They're cheap enough to buy two pairs and have a wet pair and a dry pair. Alternatively drill a pair and wear neoprene socks.

Warning - don't buy the cheapest stuff from Tesco - I did and found a Top Entrance trip in OFD like a skating rink. The soles are too thin and have no grip.

Peter - I tried all sorts to post a link to the correct page - but I'm a techno pleb and found it easier to put a link to the main site.

'Tis Border wellies I use. Stay well away from Hunters boots and such like unless you have a deathwish, or are confident you can cheat gravity! 

Hughie - you read my original post which I deleted when I realised you had already said buy the border ones!

Regarding filling your boots with water - I remember many years ago, buying some walking boots, being advised not to choose a particularly heavy pair, as (I can't remember the actual quote) "an extra pound weight at the end of your leg will be like an extra 20 on your back" (or something like that). Wellies full of water will slow you down and make you tired, so get it out by whatever means you can, holes or tipping it out.

i cut my wellies down so theyre a bit above ankle height thus meaning they dont get so heavy even when filled with water, you dont have problems with water flushing through, the boot itself is lighter and smaller (good if your walking or hitch hiking to the cave/caving area and youre ankle is more manouverable better for trickey climbs and theyre still cheap.
draw backs are that water can get over the top of your boot in shalower puddles and gravel can get in easier.
I cant see any real reason for drilling holes in the bottom of ones wellies whilst retaining the bulky heavy top bit

Sam appears to have forgotten to mention the excellent sheep restraining qualities of a decent pair of wellies.

I agree completely with Sam.

Some readers of this forum will remember the "CB Boot" which was heavily advertised in Descent (late 70s / early 80s?). It was billed as the first ever boot specificaly designed fror caving. They were a good idea in theory but they fell to bits very quickly because of the stitching.

Wellies (depending on type) can also be rolled up smaller than boots in a rucsack.
Wellies can have rigid plastic rings inserted so you can snoopy your oversuit legs to them, virtually eliminating water ingress.
Wellies can be used for novel purposes such as bailing sumps.

Cut down wellies? I remember a few people in the 80s in Derbyshire doing this; "Speedwell sneakers" they were called. The trouble is that the Speedwell streamway has been described as "the most violent and combative" in the UK. When these less secure Speedwell sneakers got washed off - it was somewhat inconvenient!

One problem with many modern wellies is that they are dreadfully slippy on wet grass; pretty dangerous actually when your shakehole contains a deep pitch.

The best wellies I ever caved in were the original rubber coal board "cooling fin" wellies; I just wish these were still available. Modern wellies still have these cooling fin protection ridges but they're nowhere near as good as the original ones.

The perfect foorwear for caving has yet to be invented but wellies aren't that far away from perfect; plus they're cheap and very long lasting. I can't imagine ever wanting to cave in ordinary boots.

I didn't like the plastic rubbery industrial type boots with laces because when I gave the laces a good tug to do them up tight then it ripped the eyelets as they weren't metal. They also had steel toe caps which get jammed in rocks (usually half way up a climb when it's least convenient).

My wellies tend to helpfully split themselves at the front so I don't need to bother putting a hole in.

There is a whole separate debate to be had on Steel toe caps.

I like em, they protect my feet from falling/rolling rocks on steep slopes and whilst digging etc. I wouldn;t want to be at the bottom of some cave/mine with a broken toe or metatarsal [/ouch]

I cant really think that I've ever got them stuck to such an extent that I'd remember the incident.
If I'm climbing, I like em to get stuck, stops me slipping off!!

I remember CB's and agree with pitlamp that they were simply not robust enough? "Whernside Wellies" with Vibram soles, now they were the business. 

I'n now a wellie fan. after trying all sorts of boots, mainly ex work boots cos they were free, some just disintegrated, some were too heavy when wet and one pair even shrunk.
I've found wellies to last for ages and keep most water out. emptying them after deep water is a pain i can put up with. i dont drill holes cos they let gravel in.
the only down side i've found is on wet grass or ice.

As for steel toecaps- i know someone who had a rock land on his foot and crush the cap so he couldnt get his injured foot out. not a situation i'd fancy underground. if i'm gonna injure my foot i'd like to be able to see the damage and/or grab the toes and hop around going " ow ya b*****rd, ****, ****, ooh ya f****r"

the argument that says "you're better off without a toecap" is "interesting"
your mate who could not get his boots off would probably have badly crushed his feet requiring rescue, surgery and possibly not walking properly again.

watch the mythbusters report. they found that the force required to "cut off your toes coz the toecap curled round" basically liquidised a non protected foot.

Its a bit like the old argument about seat belts. "they trap you in a car, you're better off being thrown clear" !

SamT said:

retain water - this can be seen as a plus. Wetsuit socks work by retaining the water warmed up initially by your body next to the skin. Your worst enemy in a wet suit (or wetsuit socks) is 'flushing' i.e. the contstant replacement of the warm water, with fresh cold.
In a very wet cave with a fast running stream, you end up with a constant flushing effect - your feet are gonna get cold.
Many people melt little drain holes into their wellies, but I reckon that leads to cold feet. Intact wellies help keep that warm water next to your feet.

Click to expand...

Agree with everything you say except I used to have a problem getting my wellies off when wearing wetsocks as I get wellies that are a snug fit so drilled a couple of small holes in the arch area to ease the vacuum effect when I try and get them off. As a byproduct of this, I find water drains out very quickly - and, sure, the holes do let some water in, but I have NEVER had cold feet as long as I wear wetsocks.

Wellies. Definitely.

Just thought I'd add another welly 'pro':
When doing SRT or crawling they protect your shins!
I think it was at hidden earth that some guys were SRTing in hiking boots and rubbed horrible welts in their legs. Wellies provide a surprising amount of protection from rubbing rope.

I, like SamT, have 'flippy' ankles and have never flipped one underground whilst wearing wellies...they go all the time in trainers above ground.