Author Topic: Hurtle Pot no.2 7/5/17  (Read 6483 times)

Offline UKMC

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Hurtle Pot no.2 7/5/17
« on: May 08, 2017, 10:32:16 pm »
Looks like the good weather brings all UKMC guys to Hurtle Pot ;) finally meet Tim Cutter . Massive thanks for John Duxbury for the two day's diving Saturday we dived with 2 stage to Jingle pot and come back to dive Base drop a stage and carry on to Downstream get on other 150mt on the main line also replaced the line 15mt for blue poly rope ;) as we had repaired last time but we had only 2mm white cave line only  .... wich give us a total 3hrs dive time that's including some surfacing in to two air bells . I got some photos from but I'm sure his got some more ... Sunday we did Downstream on single stage we nearly got to Midge Hole 100 min dive very pretty passages amazing formation the downstream tunnels are much more tighter than the upstream section but still get a way with stage accept the restriction have to pass stages on to lots of old stuff been washed down ... thanks again John......



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Offline Benfool

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Re: Hurtle Pot no.2 7/5/17
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2017, 08:41:28 am »
Hi guys

Well done for getting up to Jingle and almost down to Midge! When I finally managed both of those dives I was pretty chuffed with myself, although I did need to reline quite a bit of passage! Those downstream chambers are rather impressive aren't they! Please be careful in that downstream bolder choke, it moves around quite a bit and will probably one day collapse!

However...... please do not use 2mm 'cave' line in caves in the Yorkshire Dales, even temporarily, and if you do patch some line with it please remove it straight away after your dive. If you get to some broken line and have no proper line to patch it with, then please turn you dive and return later with some proper line.

Getting tangled in old line and line management more generally has been a major cause of accidents in British underwater caves and using very thin white line which easily breaks, turns brown in tannin stained water and that you cannot feel in thick neoprene gloves is asking for trouble. This is May in the Yorkshire dales when the weather can be a little unstable, what happens if there had been a storm in the intervening week and that line had got broken and washed downstream? Several times over the last 2 years I've needed to remove a mess if tech line from Hurtle and it's starting to get annoying and dangerous. Please do not do it!

Safe diving!

Ben wright
CDG Northern Section

Offline MJenkinson

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Re: Hurtle Pot no.2 7/5/17
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2017, 08:40:13 am »
Mr Fool, didn't a mutual friend of ours get his foot trapped under rock after it fell out of that choke onto him?!

Sounds like not-fun to me.

Offline Benfool

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Re: Hurtle Pot no.2 7/5/17
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2017, 09:10:07 am »
Didn't know about that, but its a distinct possibility! I've relined it several times after the winter floods and had to remove boulders from the choke in order to get through as they'd moved!

When I go through it I tend to make sure I've got enough gas to get all the way through to Midge in case it collapses! Although you could probably do it on a pair of 7s so its not that bad!

B

Offline ah147

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Re: Hurtle Pot no.2 7/5/17
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2017, 09:46:10 am »
Yes, a mutual friend of ours did have a rock land on his foot in that choke.

He was all OK but his fin was pretty mangled.


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Offline UKMC

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Re: Hurtle Pot no.2 7/5/17
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2017, 12:13:22 pm »
Hi guys

Well done for getting up to Jingle and almost down to Midge! When I finally managed both of those dives I was pretty chuffed with myself, although I did need to reline quite a bit of passage! Those downstream chambers are rather impressive aren't they! Please be careful in that downstream bolder choke, it moves around quite a bit and will probably one day collapse!

However...... please do not use 2mm 'cave' line in caves in the Yorkshire Dales, even temporarily, and if you do patch some line with it please remove it straight away after your dive. If you get to some broken line and have no proper line to patch it with, then please turn you dive and return later with some proper line.

Getting tangled in old line and line management more generally has been a major cause of accidents in British underwater caves and using very thin white line which easily breaks, turns brown in tannin stained water and that you cannot feel in thick neoprene gloves is asking for trouble. This is May in the Yorkshire dales when the weather can be a little unstable, what happens if there had been a storm in the intervening week and that line had got broken and washed downstream? Several times over the last 2 years I've needed to remove a mess if tech line from Hurtle and it's starting to get annoying and dangerous. Please do not do it!

Safe diving!

Ben wright
CDG Northern Section


Yes same goes for the 100's of meters of broken left line in the caves of Nidderdale by someone

No idea who left it all in all three of the caves that flood every year here but it's old and lots of it and it's a danger

Ewan Cameron
UKMC 


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Offline maxf

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Re: Hurtle Pot no.2 7/5/17
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2017, 12:38:41 pm »
Didn't know the Nitterdale cave sumps were 100's of metres long !

Offline Benfool

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Re: Hurtle Pot no.2 7/5/17
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2017, 12:47:54 pm »
Ewan, I really doubt it was 2mm white tech line that you found in the caves of nidderdale. Broken line is a likelyhood in many of our caves and learning how to avoid this and deal with it is a major part of the skills needed to be a cave diver in the UK.

However putting 2mm line in a cave in the first place, even temporary, is extremely stupid and should be avoided.

Offline ah147

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Re: Hurtle Pot no.2 7/5/17
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2017, 01:06:30 pm »
Hi guys

Well done for getting up to Jingle and almost down to Midge! When I finally managed both of those dives I was pretty chuffed with myself, although I did need to reline quite a bit of passage! Those downstream chambers are rather impressive aren't they! Please be careful in that downstream bolder choke, it moves around quite a bit and will probably one day collapse!

However...... please do not use 2mm 'cave' line in caves in the Yorkshire Dales, even temporarily, and if you do patch some line with it please remove it straight away after your dive. If you get to some broken line and have no proper line to patch it with, then please turn you dive and return later with some proper line.

Getting tangled in old line and line management more generally has been a major cause of accidents in British underwater caves and using very thin white line which easily breaks, turns brown in tannin stained water and that you cannot feel in thick neoprene gloves is asking for trouble. This is May in the Yorkshire dales when the weather can be a little unstable, what happens if there had been a storm in the intervening week and that line had got broken and washed downstream? Several times over the last 2 years I've needed to remove a mess if tech line from Hurtle and it's starting to get annoying and dangerous. Please do not do it!

Safe diving!

Ben wright
CDG Northern Section


Yes same goes for the 100's of meters of broken left line in the caves of Nidderdale by someone

No idea who left it all in all three of the caves that flood every year here but it's old and lots of it and it's a danger

Ewan Cameron
UKMC 


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Are you suggesting we leave no caves permanently lined?

Offline EwanCameron

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Re: Hurtle Pot no.2 7/5/17
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2017, 01:14:40 pm »
No what I am saying is if people know caves flood very badly in winter and a project comes to a end it would be the good thing to do to remove lines until end next spring


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Offline EwanCameron

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Re: Hurtle Pot no.2 7/5/17
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2017, 01:15:10 pm »
Ewan, I really doubt it was 2mm white tech line that you found in the caves of nidderdale. Broken line is a likelyhood in many of our caves and learning how to avoid this and deal with it is a major part of the skills needed to be a cave diver in the UK.

However putting 2mm line in a cave in the first place, even temporary, is extremely stupid and should be avoided.


Left line is left line both brake just as easy in a flood both are a danger to future divers if cave flood in the winter regardless of who put the line

What KN is Polypropylene ?
What KN is 2mm dive line ?


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Offline Benfool

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Re: Hurtle Pot no.2 7/5/17
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2017, 01:20:02 pm »
Yes both break. However 2mm tech line stains brown and is impossible to see. Its impossible to feel as its so thin. Then its impossible to gather up. Polyprop is much easier to deal with. 

Ewan, have you ever been tangled in 2mm line? I can say from experience its not very nice.

Offline Benfool

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Re: Hurtle Pot no.2 7/5/17
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2017, 01:26:03 pm »
If we were to strip all the lines out of caves that flood in the dales (that would be most of them) then non of us would get any exploration done. A lot of progress made in dales sumps is very hard won and removing lines would be a massive step backwards

Whats more important is that we report on what we find in sumps in a central location so that everybody has the same information. When you find some knackered line you fix it and report that you have done so.  Have you read the CDG newsletter reports for any of the caves in Nidderdale? So you knew what to expect?

Offline ah147

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Re: Hurtle Pot no.2 7/5/17
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2017, 01:30:25 pm »
85kg 2mm braided nylon
http://www.cheaprope.co.uk/braided-nylon-cord-p-779.html?osCsid=of4i1egbl5mnlfm7dr5g3vsaa6

220kg 4mm polyprop (minimum)
https://www.ropesdirect.co.uk/4mm-blue-polypropylene-rope-220m-coil.html

550kg 6mm polyprop (recommended)
https://www.ropesdirect.co.uk/6mm-blue-polypropylene-rope-220m-coil.html

But this is beside the point, it's actually the abrasion that breaks line over time. Polyprop is much much much much much more abrasion resistant.

Further to this, Ben's points regarding how easy techline is to feel versus polyprop and how easy it is to see is a very good point.

Removing line every winter would be the ideal tactic to avoid future problems, however, in a dive like Nidderdale this would take many many dives. Both to take out and to re-lay. Having laid 600m of 6mm polyprop in a single dive whilst removing 600m of the same on the same dive before, I can promise you,  that whilst it was possible, it was absolutely ridiculous. I'll never do it again. It's just not reasonably practicable.

But line doesn't all break, it breaks in individual places. It's much easier to patch up these places when they break and remove the old stuff, than it is to reline the whole thing.

So now we're left with the option, do we put in 2mm techline or 4/6mm polyprop? Well the polyprop is easier to feel and sits above the silt so is less likely to get buried. Is it reasonably practicable to just use a different sort of line? Yes. Seeing as how it's worked just fine for 70 years here...

Offline MJenkinson

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Re: Hurtle Pot no.2 7/5/17
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2017, 01:31:00 pm »
2mm braided nylon = 280kg
6mm poly prop = 550kg

Based on a quick google search so more than likely some variation.

An arguably more important quality would be abrasion resistance and whether not I can feel it when I am frozen.

I love 2mm line. In Mexico.

Offline UKMC

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Hurtle Pot no.2 7/5/17
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2017, 01:49:00 pm »
6mm nylon is very strong and don't float and is white so can be seen better than blue but that's personal choice

As long as it's only you using it and it's not being left for others it's a choice as a jump or a temp small section that's going to be removed it's not a issue for 2mm in good vis (witch it was) let's get off the soap box boys

All members of the diving community In the UK could be a bit more responsible as far as line removal is concerned


Ewan Cameron.
 


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Offline ah147

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Re: Hurtle Pot no.2 7/5/17
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2017, 01:54:09 pm »
White does not mean it's easy to see. The opposite.

See Bens post. Dales sumps have high levels of tannin which stain the white line brown...

Further point, Ben also pointed out that if you remove it same dive it's never a problem.

No soap box, Ben was merely posted a congratulatory message with a small note on useful line practices. Twas yourself who started this discussion.

Offline EwanCameron

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Re: Hurtle Pot no.2 7/5/17
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2017, 01:54:27 pm »
If we were to strip all the lines out of caves that flood in the dales (that would be most of them) then non of us would get any exploration done. A lot of progress made in dales sumps is very hard won and removing lines would be a massive step backwards

Whats more important is that we report on what we find in sumps in a central location so that everybody has the same information. When you find some knackered line you fix it and report that you have done so.  Have you read the CDG newsletter reports for any of the caves in Nidderdale? So you knew what to expect?

No we reported and removed it all then others removed more on a later trip and I take any bits I find out on later trips


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Offline Benfool

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Re: Hurtle Pot no.2 7/5/17
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2017, 02:11:33 pm »
No soap box Ewan, I just get really really sick of stripping inappropriate line out of Hurtle. Its dangerous and to be perfectly honest I have better things to be doing. If I dont say anything then people think that its okay to put this shite in there and suddenly its an absolute deathtrap and one of us pegs it.

We, as in the CDG, have been doing this for over 70 years. We have developed methods of pushing our sumps in the most extreme conditions. I'd like to think that at least some of us (myself not included!) know what we're doing.

Offline jcarter5826

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Re: Hurtle Pot no.2 7/5/17
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2017, 03:09:37 pm »
The loose line removed in down stream new goyden was hanging like curtains in sump 2 mainly.  It was very old stuff of the orange 6mm poly variety.  Personally I would prefer to patch gaps as and when faced with the situation with 6mm poly any day of the week.  But the stuff removed from nidderdale (new goyden) was very old and possibly the stuff originally laid by either griffiths or shackleton.  But then again could be a mix of what rich or chris jewell put in circa 2007?  Dunno.  I have a picture of it if ya wants?

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Offline EwanCameron

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Re: Hurtle Pot no.2 7/5/17
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2017, 06:05:06 pm »
No soap box Ewan, I just get really really sick of stripping inappropriate line out of Hurtle. Its dangerous and to be perfectly honest I have better things to be doing. If I dont say anything then people think that its okay to put this shite in there and suddenly its an absolute deathtrap and one of us pegs it.

We, as in the CDG, have been doing this for over 70 years. We have developed methods of pushing our sumps in the most extreme conditions. I'd like to think that at least some of us (myself not included!) know what we're doing.


Likewise sick of old line being left but sadly no ones gives a shit so just have to crack on and get on with it

We would all like others to do things as far as line goes but sadly people like you say have better things to do


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Offline EwanCameron

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Re: Hurtle Pot no.2 7/5/17
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2017, 06:08:29 pm »
Didn't know the Nitterdale cave sumps were 100's of metres long !

When there's 4 lots of old line left in there don't take much length of the sump to make 100's of M of floating line in a cloud like there was in Sump 2 up stream in New Goydens

And I believe the lofthhouse dives are 100's of M long and still yet to be pushed for K's to connect to new Goydens


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Offline EwanCameron

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Re: Hurtle Pot no.2 7/5/17
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2017, 06:10:26 pm »
The loose line removed in down stream new goyden was hanging like curtains in sump 2 mainly.  It was very old stuff of the orange 6mm poly variety.  Personally I would prefer to patch gaps as and when faced with the situation with 6mm poly any day of the week.  But the stuff removed from nidderdale (new goyden) was very old and possibly the stuff originally laid by either griffiths or shackleton.  But then again could be a mix of what rich or chris jewell put in circa 2007?  Dunno.  I have a picture of it if ya wants?

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Yes plz JC have you got the one of the mass pile outside on the floor after the dive I've only got the one of the stuff we pulled out the air bell the week before


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Offline NotCEmarked

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Re: Hurtle Pot no.2 7/5/17
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2017, 06:42:25 pm »

Likewise sick of old line being left but sadly no ones gives a shit so just have to crack on and get on with it

Hi Ewan,

Lines found in UK sumps are generally, far from perfect.

As JC has previously mentioned, much of it dates back to the original explorations so worst case, 1945. I cannot speak directly for them but imagine that the cavers whom explored these caves weren't that mindful of tourists that may follow in decades to come.

Could we cleanse the UK of old dive line?There are over 645 caves listed in the Northern Sump Index alone. Which ones would you like us to start with?

Crack on.

Cheers, Steve





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Offline jcarter5826

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Re: Hurtle Pot no.2 7/5/17
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2017, 06:55:16 pm »
Gnarly

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