On clean, supple, 10mm rope they are okay. On anything fatter, stiffer or dirtier, they are awful.
SRT descending it's jumpy, either on or off with a tiny sweet spot. Almost useless for hauling and rescue due to the top 'claw'.

I've used one professionally in a 'lowering' type setup for the last 4 years. We'd use a Stop, but the bobbins wore out in 2 weeks. The Kong lasts 6 months being stainless steel. Also worth noting that the new version has a life limit of 7500m of descent. We could hit that in a week, so now we're swapping to RIG2s and the Kong is history.
Get a RIG2, they are great.


[gmod] Originally posted in https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=24361.0 but subsequent posts were mainly regarding the Petzl Rig, so a new Topic created[/gmod]

TheGrave said:

Asked about the newer version (Indy Evo Plus) in Cavers of Facebook group and here is what I got:

Yuval Sobolyev

Pros:
1. Unlike Stop, it really stops even on thin ropes (8.5-9mm)
2. Bobins are much thicker and durable than in the Stop
3. Panic proof mechanism

Cons:
1. The Bobins can not be replaced
2. Very heavy (480g vs 326g)
3. Auto lock can not be disabled
4. The mechanism that lock it close made of metal and tends to bend and get stuck in an open position

Click to expand...

You took the words out of my mouth 

Pete K said:

On clean, supple, 10mm rope they are okay. On anything fatter, stiffer or dirtier, they are awful.
SRT descending it's jumpy, either on or off with a tiny sweet spot. Almost useless for hauling and rescue due to the top 'claw'.

I've used one professionally in a 'lowering' type setup for the last 4 years. We'd use a Stop, but the bobbins wore out in 2 weeks. The Kong lasts 6 months being stainless steel. Also worth noting that the new version has a life limit of 7500m of descent. We could hit that in a week, so now we're swapping to RIG2s and the Kong is history.
Get a RIG2, they are great.

Click to expand...

I see the Rig is for 10mm +, have you tried it on 9mm?

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

9mm and up fine as a descender for RIG2.
"EN 15151-1 when used with a 9 to 10.5 mm rope"
https://www.petzl.com/GB/en/Professional/Descenders/RIG
I've used it with 9mm Gleistein and you do need the extra friction of a braking krab.

Jon said:

I see the Rig is for 10mm +, have you tried it on 9mm?

Click to expand...

Yes - used my Rig regularly on 9mm - no braking krab needed.

Pete K said:

9mm and up fine as a descender for RIG2.
"EN 15151-1 when used with a 9 to 10.5 mm rope"
https://www.petzl.com/GB/en/Professional/Descenders/RIG
I've used it with 9mm Gleistein and you do need the extra friction of a braking krab.

Click to expand...

EN15151-1 is a belay device standard and the 9 to 10.5mm relates to dynamic rope, not low stretch.

The min. 10mm rope that Jon refers to is the minimum low stretch rope diameter used for testing to the EN12841C descender device standard.

No problem using thinner ropes, just be aware they may not perform as well as when using 10mm+ diameter ropes.

Mark

Mark Wright said:

No problem using thinner ropes, just be aware they may not perform as well as when using 10mm+ diameter ropes.

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Doesn?t the fact that the Rig  may not perform as well as with the correct rope diameter constitute a problem?

Surely either it performs as it should do and is safe, or it isn?t.

Its not really about the 'correct' rope diameter.

EN12841C is an industrial standard and as such the rope diameters used for testing need to be EN1891A which generally have a range of diameters between 10 and 11.5mm.

EN15151-1 is a sports climbing standard and as such the rope diameters used for testing need to be EN892 which generally have a range of diameters between 9 and 10.5mm.

Stops are tested against the EN341A rescue descender standard and as such the rope diameters used for testing need to be EN1891A & B, Type B (Rescue Rope), generally having a range of diameters between 9 and 11.5mm.

Rigs are tested against all the above EN standards.

There is no EN standard for caving descenders so we take our advice from the user instructions and any other relevant sources of information, here for instance or the Petzl website.

If you use a Stop with 8mm accessory cord, which many cavers have done over the years, it isn't unsafe, you just have to be aware that the auto-lock facility may not work as well as when using thicker ropes and it may be a bit quick so you have to be reasonably experienced in its use in all conditions and take extra care.

Mark

The only possible 'advantage' of the indy over the rigs is the anti panic function, if you wanted that you'd have to go for a Petzl ID or possibly an edelrid eddy, though I don't know if anyone that's used one of those underground.

I find my Rig (old model) goes easily on fat 11m club rope (which a Stop doesn't), and stops reliably on slick 9mm (which a Stop doesn't). So I find it better at both ends of the spectrum than a Stop; I haven't tried it on 8mm yet but it did still lock up on the horrific 9mm mud tubes that passed for ropes on exped as long as you 'bounced' it at rebelays...

Pete K said:

On clean, supple, 10mm rope they are okay. On anything fatter, stiffer or dirtier, they are awful.
SRT descending it's jumpy, either on or off with a tiny sweet spot. Almost useless for hauling and rescue due to the top 'claw'.

I've used one professionally in a 'lowering' type setup for the last 4 years. We'd use a Stop, but the bobbins wore out in 2 weeks. The Kong lasts 6 months being stainless steel. Also worth noting that the new version has a life limit of 7500m of descent. We could hit that in a week, so now we're swapping to RIG2s and the Kong is history.
Get a RIG2, they are great.

Click to expand...

I see RIG2 quoted in many places but on Petzl's website it's just RIG. Is this a second version of the same product? How do I distinguish it from the old one?

Second version of the RIG, which I think Petzl called a RIG2 when it was announced but dropped the 2 when old one ceased production. Anyway, current RIG model has the stainless steel wear plate on the side and a handle that returns to lock automatically and does not require manually locking off.

Pete K said:

Second version of the RIG, which I think Petzl called a RIG2 when it was announced but dropped the 2 when old one ceased production. Anyway, current RIG model has the stainless steel wear plate on the side and a handle that returns to lock automatically and does not require manually locking off.

Click to expand...

I still haven't bought a replacement of my CT Acles DX so I was wondering what are your long-term impressions on the new RIG for caving? Longevity, muddy/stiff ropes handling, annoying little details?

Love it. I have a few and keep my ropes very clean, so my wear levels will probably be less than the average caver. I don't have a bad thing to say about the RIG however, borrow one to try before you buy, as not everyone will like it. I also like the new Stop very much. I don't care if I can't replace the bobbins on it because I'm not tight. RIG for me given the choice though. I am still using the first one I bought as my primary. Mostly 10/10.5mm ropes but some 9mm. Works fine on stiff stuff, better than the old Stop I recon.

I actually dropped Hillocks Mine (climbing shaft route) on 9mm Gleistein and a Petzl i'D a few years ago as it was (kind of) work, so I had to use their kit, but I insisted on using my rope - as we were on my turf for once they didn't complain. In fact when they looked down the climbing shaft they agreed. I was very pleased to see that it functioned perfectly in all respects, especially the anti-panic function endlessly kicking in on the tight bits. But at least it grabbed the rope fine. I use a Rig too on my own work kit though.

Still using a Kong Banana with custom stainless bobbins and a Raumer Handy braking krab for caving. It's heavy but it's fast and very smooth, and doesn't wear out. It did come apart once halfway down Maskhill at the head of Murmuring Churn, but it turned out it had a faulty hinge nut, which I managed to get replaced. After the trip, obviously. Finger-tight was enough to get me to the bottom  8)

TheGrave said:

I still haven't bought a replacement of my CT Acles DX so I was wondering what are your long-term impressions on the new RIG for caving? Longevity, muddy/stiff ropes handling, annoying little details?

Click to expand...

I am a big fan of my Rig. I used the first model, and that was great - reliably locking up on some 8mm rope even after much use (apparently to the point where it would fail a PPE inspection, but plenty of metal left on the cam ). I took it down the Dachstein two years in a row and although the mud there is sticky and horrible, and the ropes are also nasty (slipping ascenders due to mud clogging then), I didn't have any problems with the Rig. Very occasionally I had to bounce a bit at a rebelay to get it to lock up.
Unfortunately I had worn a deep groove in the wear plate on the top, which would probably have developed a hole in the near future, so I've bought a new one (with the wear plate) and relegated the old one to a spare.