"So, who has been caving before?"  is standard question we caving instructors generally ask our groups.  In recent years it has become apparent that many of those who say "yes, me" have not been in natural caves but have actually visited artificial systems.  While some realise that concrete pipes and caves are quite different things, others, sadly, do not.  Yesterday I took a girl who was reluctant - "been caving - didn't like it" - her previous experience and attitude were based on a visit to an artificial cave.  She found the experience of natural caving far more enjoyable.
So....
What do we think about artificial caves?
What do we feel about their use being described as 'caving'?
Are we concerned that artificial caves may actually turn-off potential cavers?
Should BCA have a policy on any of this?

Not sure about BCA having a policy on this, perhaps a better description could either be "An undergrgound expierence" or perhaps better still "confined access expierence"
We have run an activity at scout camps made from straw bales (small bales), which most of the young people love, but does have hazards different to what you might encounter underground in a real cave, the main deifference I suppose is that 90% of the passages we form are 1 straw bale size we build it on several levels to make them go up and down and round but the whole thing especially for the larger frame is mainly crawling or more often commando crawling.
A scout camp site near to brighton has a black/dark activity but not sure what they call it but I know it is definately not called caving and is made in the form again mutli levels, rooms and crawling passages, not sure what its like as not yet had chance to go into it, another scout camp site in sussex has a series of interconnecting drain pipes of varying size which I believe they do call a caving expierence, but it is very small and after about 5 minutes you have completed the whole thing.
The nearest real undergrgound system to us is Merstam, an underground quarry system, due to the nature of the sytem you can give people a good feel to what caving is from walking to flat out and everything in between, all without out going to far from an entrance.
I suppose the answer is that an artificial expierence can only imitate a real cave to a degree depending on fiances available and the real thing is always going to better, but very difficult to deliver the real thing if you do not live in a caving region,
I believe there is a place for artificial caves but perhaps the group leaders/instructors need to explain or describe the expierence better or in a different way

What might a BCA policy say?

graham said:

What might a BCA policy say?

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Simply, perhaps, that exploring artificial tunnels is not caving and should not be described as such.

Andy Sparrow said:

graham said:

What might a BCA policy say?

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Simply, perhaps, that exploring artificial tunnels is not caving and should not be described as such.

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Ok, so how would one then apply such a policy?

Andy Sparrow said:

"So, who has been caving before?"  is standard question we caving instructors generally ask our groups.  In recent years it has become apparent that many of those who say "yes, me" have not been in natural caves but have actually visited artificial systems.  While some realise that concrete pipes and caves are quite different things, others, sadly, do not.   Yesterday I took a girl who was reluctant - "been caving - didn't like it" - her previous experience and attitude were based on a visit to an artificial cave.  She found the experience of natural caving far more enjoyable.
So....
What do we think about artificial caves?
What do we feel about their use being described as 'caving'?
Are we concerned that artificial caves may actually turn-off potential cavers?
Should BCA have a policy on any of this?

Click to expand...

At a Derbyshire CRO "exhibit" earlier this year in Buxton (see News Page) we had an "artificial cave", the "portable cave" which was basically a long concertinaed tube with a tarpaulin over it. It was tremendously popular with kids with over 150 having a crawl through with some repeating the exercise 3 or more times.

The kids enjoyed it and, no, it isn't caving but it may have got some of them interested in caving.

I'm sure there are just as many first-time cavers who were put off in "real" caves depending on location and how the trip went.

I don't think any of these "artificial" caves cause any harm but it is worth pointing out that they are hardly the same as real caves in the same as climbing walls are not just the same as climbing on a crag.

When I was young several of our local playgrounds had a mound of earth with a sort of cross of the large concrete sewer pipes within it. These were always really popular. These have all now been removed as they fail the inspections of play equipment on safety grounds (the hard head height lip on the concrete pipe). I wonder if any survive elsewhere.

The local fire brigade also used to build those straw bale tunnels for their annual fete. I've also seen them built on pistol ranges with targets inside in the past, all great fun.

Badger's post brings back fond memories of building long, complicated and very dusty tunnels out of haybales in a friend's barn when we were 10 and 11. As I remember, we went quite deep (2-3 bales deep so they partially collapsed) and had lots of steps down and up. Learned very early that the human body will fit through a surprisingly small gap... Not caving, but a good, positive experience. I'd imagine I'd have liked an artificial cave, and wanted to try the real thing.

Can't imagine a BCA policy will make any difference. But I'd guess it's probably better psychology to say "now let's try some real caving - it's great!" rather than "this isn't real caving".

Wow! That brings back a sudden memory too...

As kids the area we lived in was expanding rapidly, many of 'our' fields had become building sites.
You weren't supposed to play on them, but they weren't fenced like they are now and as long as we didn't make ourselves too obvious we did as we pleased.

The bricks used to arrive (as they do today) in wire-wrapped bundles and fork-lifted into huge stacks 3 deep.

We used to take out the loose bricks and tunnel into the voids between the stacks as well as through them to make 'dens'. Some very inventive 'caving' although I'd never have thought of it as such at the time.

Fortunately we only ever experienced one serious cave-in - but no one needed the hospital so that was alright. (just as well as we daren't tell our parents what we'd been doing!)

I honestly feel that kids are mising out on something today. The chance to have free-rein in a very dangerous environment was really good fun and probably taught me a thing or two. Who needs an adventure playground when you have acres of building sites.

Dep said:

...
(just as well as we daren't tell our parents what we'd been doing!)
...

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To add...

They would have been angry with us for being somewhere and doing something that may have gotten us into trouble - Not because we were doing something dangerous.

And let's not overlook the value of trees; great for climbing practice and also for SRT. Seriously!
Do it at night in the rain and it's even more like caving!

I particularly enjoy marvelling at the majestic conifers in Great Chamber in GB Cavern.

cap 'n chris said:

I particularly enjoy marvelling at the majestic conifers in Great Chamber in GB Cavern.

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You were lucky
I've never seen the mythical conifers due to the continual cloud bank in the distance caused as the warm air is forced to rise over the distant mountains. A bit like the Cuillins but more impressive


GB Great Chamber on a clear day

cap 'n chris said:

I particularly enjoy marvelling at the majestic conifers in Great Chamber in GB Cavern.

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Wellingtonias no doubt?

Brilliant photo, Les! - light painting with a long setting, using a tripod, clearly.

I've just got back from a weekend in Wales and had a great time in the tunnel maze at Greenwood Forest Park. It was only on the way out that I spotted the 'under sevens' sign.

What do we think about artificial caves?
What do we feel about their use being described as 'caving'?
Are we concerned that artificial caves may actually turn-off potential cavers?
Should BCA have a policy on any of this?

Sorry to join the topic a bit late, have been away for a while.

I take Scouts caving every month and every now and then I come across the same problem as Andy describes. One of the Scout Campsites on the boarders of Bucks and Northants has an artificial system as exciting as it seems to some it does put others off.  The feel of concrete pipe believe it or not can make you feel more enclosed than a natural cave even in the same sort of space. 

It would be great if an artificial system could be built to give the feel of a real cave, even if it was concrete pipe then lined with a GRP coating. Part of the fun of caving is the rock formations around you etc.

As for describing them as caving, well I'm sure BT and various water authorities who send people underground to examine or repair stuff don't call it caving. Prehaps a suitable alternative needs to be thought of ?

I think potentially Yes artifcial caves can put soem people off, but there will always be people who don't like tight spaces regardless.

As for the BCA can't see that they can make much of a difference on this.

Broad Stone Waren Scout Camp (spelt something like that) has a good artificial cave. It too consists of sewer pipes ranging from just over a foot diameter to 6 foot across beasts. Its built mainly on the flat but alot of the pipes are on a slight gradient and some of the entrances require a bit of scrambling. You could probably do the whole system in 30 minutes one of the long pipes is tight and takes a good ten minutes of wiggling although i was only 14 at the time.

Ive also been in one at Manor Adventure made out of fiber glass.... It was grim filled with very sharp gravel and at the stoopy height where you don't know whether to crawl or stoop resulting in stooping then falling over. All the passage was made to look the same.

Thriftwood scout camp has a 3D maze which can be made dark. It has lots of obstacles and is on different levels but is indoors totaly dry and made out of ply wood.

In conclusion Broad stone warren was the best for variety, interest and size. And was probably relatively cheap.
Thriftwood came second being relatively big and interesting obstacles etc.
Manor adventure was $%^*& and comes last and if it was the only experience i had had of caving i wouldn't cave now. It was probably the most expensive system too. Oh and they made us wear helmets lights and overalls. all wet from the previous users. The other places just made sure you had a torch and a map of the pipes etc.

I think it very much depends on the design and layout and philosophy behind such project to the enjoyment level. Ive also seen a few inflatable caves.