DistoX sharing for expeditions

[andrewmcleod]

So the DistoX is dead; neither Beat nor the caver who made new boards for it are making them any more due to chip unavailability.

But apparently (I have a friend who has one) like a phoenix there is an alternative version now available (stuff I've seen online is dated May 2023). It is based on Bluetooth Low Energy rather than the (now unavailable) Bluetooth Classic which means it won't work with old PDAs, requires Android version 4.3 or above if using Android, and (currently at least) only works with TopoDroid. You still need to buy the board kit (including screw and 'charger' which I suspect means the microUSB port) plus the battery (possibly available from the same source) and you have to get hold of your own Disto X310 (now out of production but still available new I think). You then have to actually build the thing yourself (or get a competent friend to build it; looks to be the same as with the older boards).

If we have enough money, our exped might think about buying one, but seems a bit of a waste having a device that only gets used once a year. Are there any other expeds (that don't go on exped middle of August to start of September) that might want to share a DistoX bluetooth low energy or two? No promises yet about anything - supply might dry up/disappear, waiting times might be too long to get new boards before this year's exped, approval would be needed etc...

 

[Benfool]

If it helps, I'm on a second batch of boards arriving from Siwei Tian - they should arrive soon (but they're all spoken for). The boards themselves are pretty good and he can supply batteries too.

You're right about the compatibility with older PDAs - this only works with Topodroid (the latest version, topodroid X, which isn't available on the Google Play Store).

Only issue is that the ribbon cable connectors are pretty tight so you have to be very careful when installing (I've stripped a couple of cables doing it). Other than this the installation is the same as the previous versions.

B

 

[Badlad]

Also readily available are Suunto type compass and clinos together with a laser distance measuring device. You do need a notebook and pencil to record the data and passage. However, this method has been used to create some excellent surveys and the system is very easy to use. Probably a more inclusive method than the slightly elitist methods referred to above. To conclude;

Readily available
Easy to use
Proven method of creating good surveys

 

[Logismos]

Also readily available are Suunto type compass and clinos together with a laser distance measuring device. You do need a notebook and pencil to record the data and passage. However, this method has been used to create some excellent surveys and the system is very easy to use. Probably a more inclusive method than the slightly elitist methods referred to above. To conclude;

Readily available
Easy to use
Proven method of creating good surveys

Personally found the above system to be fairly easy to use, and only marginally more clunky.

If only they weren't £230

Suunto Tandem/360PC/360R G Clino/Compass - Precision instrument for professionals

Suunto Tandem is a liquid-filled precision compass and clinometer in one compact alloy housing. Scales for inclination in degrees and %. NSN: 6605-01-583-7509, 6695-58-000-2303, 6695-58-000-8724, 6675-66-153-9665

www.suunto.com

 

[andrewmcleod]

Also readily available are Suunto type compass and clinos together with a laser distance measuring device. You do need a notebook and pencil to record the data and passage. However, this method has been used to create some excellent surveys and the system is very easy to use. Probably a more inclusive method than the slightly elitist methods referred to above. To conclude;

Readily available
Easy to use
Proven method of creating good surveys

People did excellent surveys in the 60s with tape, compass and clino with high degrees of accuracy on the centreline (except for the occasional blunder). The passage dimensions (particularly heights) are generally approximated and cross-sections not usually to exact scale. But they did a damn good job with what they had. Doesn't mean that I would recommend doing that now...

Yes, you certainly can produce an excellent survey with traditional instruments (plus laser measurer) that can be fully incorporated into any digital survey (Therion predates the DistoX after all). In some very caves, this will in fact be the only method that works in places (because your 80m or 120m DistoX won't hit the ceiling).

Using a DistoX is hardly 'elitist' - I'm not sure a quality compass, clino and laser measurer will cost that much less than a DistoX (maybe half the price). It also probably requires more skill (which makes it _more_ elitist if anything) to do accurate-ish drawings whereas a few splays will show exactly where your walls/ceiling are. Doing scale cross-sections (along with taking shots generally) is likely to be much quicker with a single device that does your distance/bearing/angle all in one rather than having to use two/three separate instruments for each shot.

Anything that involves manual reading/writing of numbers and stuff (e.g. the Disto and paper workflow, or traditional instruments) also greatly increases the chance of introducing an error. You have to read a number, say a number, someone has to hear that number, they have to write down that number, then (out of the cave) someone has to read that number again and type it in somewhere; lots of opportunities for errors.
Sometimes the Disto will just give you a shot that is wildly wrong for a splay (less likely for a leg since you need 3 shots to match up) but with digital surveying this is usually immediately obvious as are less significant errors because the lines don't go where you expect.

It's also quicker (particularly if you use Topodroid and Therion) to get from survey-in-the-cave to completed digital survey instead of having to scan lots of bits of paper and redraw them all in Therion (assuming you actually want a future-proof survey, of course). Even if using PDA and redrawing in Therion, you'll only have one survey drawing to go over the top of rather than having to draw over lots of different scraps and deal with the joins etc.

I suspect you'll also struggle to do a good survey solo with traditional instruments (which can be done with a Disto and phone although it is a bit faffy).

I'd say that for the modern generation Disto and SexyTopo/Topodroid/Qave might be the most accessible, most inclusive methods of surveying and produce stuff that is most useful for the survey wizards who actually end up drawing it all up. Using a DistoX is not _quite_ point and shoot, but it's pretty close...

It all depends what you are doing of course - if you are surveying a new bit of dig that's 30m long, it doesn't really matter how slow your surveying is. Equally if you are only doing very broad strokes surveying of kilometers of big passage (e.g. legs > 30m, mostly just LRUDs and no significant scaled detail, possibly a lot of unscaled freehand drawing, no cross-sections) then you can do this happily with traditional instruments. If you want to do detailed surveys of a few hundred metres of complex passage showing lots of detail, regular to scale cross-sections, awkward sections with leg lengths of no more than 3m or so, then I'd much rather have the DistoX and phone/tablet...

I would assume most expeditions will be expecting digital surveying now so it would be great to get more DistoX's for expeditions that are keen to do training (e.g. CUCC, Dachstein, ICCC's Slovenia exped? etc.?) while they are still available. What expeds that have an organized survey project (i.e. produce complete surveys, updated with each expedition, for each cave they are working on as opposed to just bits of survey for new bits of cave) are still largely using traditional instruments?

 

[Badlad]

So the DistoX is dead; neither Beat nor the caver who made new boards for it are making them any more due to chip unavailability.

Your second comment is all great, Andrew, but I was replying to your first comment (above). If new boards, 'out of production' Distos etc, aren't available or there aren't enough of them, then there is an alternative which will do the job.

 

[nearlywhite]

There are multiple surveying devices coming through:

You have the SAP5 coming out - though I don't think for this expedition season though Phil may correct me on that. If push comes to shove though I'm happy for you to have my SAP4 (all fully integrated with Topodroid) if needed.

It's also worth speaking to Brendan about the modular disto replacement currently undergoing development and awaiting field testing (shown at the CSG meeting earlier this year). This may be a more appropriate model for sharing between expeditions. I believe [citation needed] that a funding application is going through the BCRA and I believe you may have an inside line as to what's going on in that group

The other thing to consider are the Austrians who regularly survey - they may be interested in 'off season' equipment and may well increase local capacity to survey.

If you want the contact details of other British expeditions that may be interested in a scheme then I'd advise emailing the leaders listed on the GPF website for the regular expeditions (Tresviso, Matienzo etc).

 

[Relict]

Hi, I've just posted this on the surveying page:
Hi all, on the distoxble subject, Alan and I have been trialling the development work that Siwei Tian, (xble PCB developer) and Rich Smith (SexyTopo) have been collaborating on. We are hugely grateful to them for this effort which is restoring ST to the new Disto platform.
Beta 5 version is available on Google play. I think the developers are taking a break from this now, but for anyone trialling the new hardware with this latest software, any comments are welcome here. At least for me, as sketcher, this is now the way forward in our project.