Author Topic: Why haven't we heard of this?  (Read 5867 times)

Offline mrodoc

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Why haven't we heard of this?
« on: December 06, 2010, 10:18:52 pm »

Offline Les W

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Re: Why haven't we heard of this?
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2010, 10:47:48 pm »
What a terrible web site. It's almost impossible to navigate and most links are not yet activated.
I cannot find out how somebody could become a member.
I'm a very busy person

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Why haven't we heard of this?
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2010, 10:55:48 pm »

Offline langcliffe

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Re: Why haven't we heard of this?
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2010, 11:03:08 pm »
I first came across this site a couple of years ago when developing the BCA Library web site (not the catalogue part of it I hasten to add). It is truly one of the worst web sites that I have come across, and what is cringingly embarrassing is the technical naivety of their "Practical Notes & Technical Support Information" (last updated in April 2008).

The reason why most people haven't of them is that they don't seem to approve of the rest of the British caving community:

"Specialist earth-sciences organizations, of which the Society is a typical example, fit uneasily into the definition of what is now commonly referred to as the "Third Sector" or "charitable organizations". A "charity" is now more usually a convenient term of legal status which almost any "voluntary sector" group or organization can seek to acquire, if only to gain the uncertain benefits that such a status will confer on the organization and / or its Members. Such a status is often attained at the expense of the long-term erosion of the original principles of the organization and also does not automatically confer the application of common-sense in the use or disbursement of its funds or assets. Such organizations can become corrupted by government, over-politicised and over-professionalised, with the consequent loss in independence of thought and action and a gross dilution in the effectiveness of the original declared purpose.
Indications of this deterioration can be evidenced, for example, by the abnormally high percentages of funds spent (wasted?) on self-administration; by the gradual adoption of salaried employees to carry out the routine tasks formerly undertaken free of charge by volunteers; by giving professionals control over more critical tasks formerly controlled by volunteers or by the acceptance of creeping commercialisation into many areas.
In our opinion, the national-level "representatives" of the British caving and speleological community have gradually fallen foul of some of the above elements and they are most certainly not alone in having done so, with many other more popular British Charities having done so long ago and usually in a more grand style of deterioration. However, in our opinion, the self-declared "National leaders" of the speleological "voluntary sector" in this country certainly need to rethink their role."

That means US.

It is worth Googling some of the leading lights of the organisation.

Offline mrodoc

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Re: Why haven't we heard of this?
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2010, 11:06:45 pm »
I know something about this so PM me if you want to know more!

Offline AndyF

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Re: Why haven't we heard of this?
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2010, 11:08:21 pm »
Funding/Visa bait.....
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Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Why haven't we heard of this?
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2010, 09:43:01 am »
A "charity" is now more usually a convenient term of legal status which almost any "voluntary sector" group or organization can seek to acquire, if only to gain the uncertain benefits that such a status will confer on the organization and / or its Members. Such a status is often attained at the expense of the long-term erosion of the original principles of the organization and also does not automatically confer the application of common-sense in the use or disbursement of its funds or assets. Such organizations can become corrupted by government, over-politicised and over-professionalised, with the consequent loss in independence of thought and action and a gross dilution in the effectiveness of the original declared purpose.
Indications of this deterioration can be evidenced, for example, by the abnormally high percentages of funds spent (wasted?) on self-administration; by the gradual adoption of salaried employees to carry out the routine tasks formerly undertaken free of charge by volunteers; by giving professionals control over more critical tasks formerly controlled by volunteers or by the acceptance of creeping commercialisation into many areas.
In our opinion, the national-level "representatives" of the British caving and speleological community have gradually fallen foul of some of the above elements and they are most certainly not alone in having done so, with many other more popular British Charities having done so long ago and usually in a more grand style of deterioration.

I find myself agreeing with this in its entirety. For perfect examples of this check out the NSPCC Annual Accounts and/or RNLI Accounts, downloadable via the Charities Commission website. They are documents of big business, not charity.

Offline damian

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Re: Why haven't we heard of this?
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2010, 10:07:15 am »
In our opinion, the national-level "representatives" of the British caving and speleological community have gradually fallen foul of some of the above elements and they are most certainly not alone in having done so, with many other more popular British Charities having done so long ago and usually in a more grand style of deterioration.

While it is the case that BCA have a few part-time paid roles and spend a small amount on "self administration", I do not recognise much of what is being supposedly lumped on us in the above. It is worth adding that BCA is not a charity.

Offline graham

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Re: Why haven't we heard of this?
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2010, 10:25:43 am »
In our opinion, the national-level "representatives" of the British caving and speleological community have gradually fallen foul of some of the above elements and they are most certainly not alone in having done so, with many other more popular British Charities having done so long ago and usually in a more grand style of deterioration.

While it is the case that BCA have a few part-time paid roles and spend a small amount on "self administration", I do not recognise much of what is being supposedly lumped on us in the above. It is worth adding that BCA is not a charity.

The BCRA is, though, as are a number of caving clubs for various reasons. However, even more of the latter are granted similar tax exemptions as Community Amateur Sports Clubs. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
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Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Why haven't we heard of this?
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2010, 10:42:28 am »
The benefits of Charitable status are by no means "uncertain". They are well-defined in law. If a body chooses to exchange the freedom and risks of being non-charitable for both the limitations and the benefits of being a registered charity, then why should this bother anyone other than the members of that body? For small bodies there are simply no over-bearing administrative costs or responsibilities to be concerned about.

Offline Les W

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Re: Why haven't we heard of this?
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2010, 11:14:12 am »
I think this organisation is questionable in its research and aims.
I feel it is very important that they are not allowed to speak for the wider caving community either to government/councils or other UK bodies and also internationally.

Their views on the mainstream caving community are just plain wrong.
A lot of damage could result from them pertaining to represent us (the wider caving community) at official levels.

I hope the well respected international established karst societies and research establishments are aware that they do not represent mainstream UK cave science.
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Offline Stuart Anderson

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Re: Why haven't we heard of this?
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2010, 11:51:51 am »



. A "charity" is now more usually a convenient term of legal status which almost any "voluntary sector" group or organization can seek to acquire, if only to gain the uncertain benefits that such a status will confer on the organization and / or its Members. Such a status is often attained at the expense of the long-term erosion of the original principles of the organization and also does not automatically confer the application of common-sense in the use or disbursement of its funds or assets. Such organizations can become corrupted by government, over-politicised and over-professionalised, with the consequent loss in independence of thought and action and a gross dilution in the effectiveness of the original declared purpose.



Half way down their website; left pane:

"Our Changeover to become a U.K. Registered Charity (in progress)"  :shrug:
I've roamed and rambled and I've followed my footsteps
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Offline mrodoc

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Re: Why haven't we heard of this?
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2010, 12:58:56 pm »
The original post was rhetorical. DKRP has been going for over 30 years but its activities are very limited. Probably because it consists of only  one person I suspect. However it shows what can be done by using the internet as a tool to promote yourself and to outsiders it all looks very impressive. I have been showing this web page to various bods over the years and I think the business about it becoming a charity has been pending just as long - but of course that looks good to the casual visitor.

Offline droid

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Re: Why haven't we heard of this?
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2010, 06:18:53 pm »
Just about every human activity has self-important clowns like this.

Strikes me it's the work of a delusional idiot.
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Offline gus horsley

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Re: Why haven't we heard of this?
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2010, 07:16:51 pm »
I've figured it out!  There's a place in Slovenia called "Devon".  It all makes sense now.     :smartass:

Offline Les W

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Re: Why haven't we heard of this?
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2010, 07:19:08 pm »
I've figured it out!  There's a place in Slovenia called "Devon".

Is there? I never found it.  :tease:
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Offline Andyj23UK

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Re: Why haven't we heard of this?
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2010, 10:13:23 am »
hmm , thier ` official policy ` is :

Quote
The Society does not promote "recreational" caving activities as a sport within Devon

and they have a dim view of sports and commercial caving in the UK , and the people running them

but they are happy to reccomend a commerical cavig venture in mexico - WTF ?

Quote
Links to other recommended Websites of Speleological and Karstological specialist organizations :
For those who are interested in browsing the World Wide Web for other specialist karst and cave websites, we can recommend the following :- .........................

< SNIP > ..................................
 
DIVE MEXICO :
A site operated by one of our more enterprising Hungarian Members in Mexico.
This site offers guided Cavern Diving and Cave Diving in the cenotes of the Yucutan Karst Peninsula.
http://www.divemexico.eu

sounds highly hypocritical

Offline langcliffe

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Re: Why haven't we heard of this?
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2011, 12:22:12 pm »
I see that these guys have taken their insulting comments about the rest of the caving community off the front page of their website. Now gone is:

"In our opinion, the national-level "representatives" of the British caving and speleological community have gradually fallen foul of some of the above elements and they are most certainly not alone in having done so, with many other more popular British Charities having done so long ago and usually in a more grand style of deterioration. However, in our opinion, the self-declared "National leaders" of the speleological "voluntary sector" in this country certainly need to rethink their role."

Offline droid

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Re: Why haven't we heard of this?
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2011, 03:29:04 pm »
Nonentity with delusions of grandeur.

Got 'em in every walk of life. I've been following a thread on a biker forum, about a 'club' that thinks it's a Backpatch club. Same shit different context.
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