Author Topic: Restoration of Perennial Flow in the River Lathkill upstream of Bubble Springs  (Read 92851 times)

Offline Mark

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There will be a 'roadshow' at Aldern House, Bakewell (PDNP) on Thursday 23rd January 2014 to discuss proposals for restoring perennial flow in the Lathkill. Doors will open 18:45 for a 19:00 start and the meeting is expected to last for about 2.5 hours.

There will be talks by Warren Slaney (Haddon Estate); Jenny Phillips (EA); Kevin Bull (NE), Rhodri Thomas (PDNP) & John Gunn with plenty of time for discussion.

The intention is that this should be an open meeting so any caver / mine explorer with an interest in the area is welcome to attend.

However, pre-registration is necessary as if there is a significant demand the event will be switched to a larger venue. Please could anyone planning to attend send an email to John Gunn ( j.gunn.1    @     bham.ac.uk ).
« Last Edit: December 22, 2013, 10:20:45 pm by bubba, Reason: no need to shout (caps removed) »

Offline bograt

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Wonder why?  :-\
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Offline Mark

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Wonder why?  :-\

Not sure what you mean Boggie

Offline mulucaver

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Wonder why?  :-\
Go to the meeting Terry and perhaps you'll find out.
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Offline Mark

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Bit of an insight into why




Offline Peter Burgess

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Offline mmilner

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This may or may not be relevant.

http://www.aditnow.co.uk/Community/viewtopic.aspx?t=6220

It is indeed relevant Peter (very informative) and I will read it in full later. I have been involved in discussion with other DCA officers about this already and once I've read that page fully I will share that video with them as well.

Thanks for posting the link Mark.

Regards Mel. DCA Conservation Officer.

Norbert Casteret (Ten Years Under the Earth) and Pierre Chevalier (Subterranean Climbers) were my inspiration to start caving. (And I'm still doing it.) Secretary, Darfar Potholing Club, the Peak District.

Offline Jenny P

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The possible project to restore the flow of the River Lathkill by restricting the flow into the River Wye from Magpie Sough was brought to DCA's attention by Prof. Gunn earlier this year.  It has been the subject of discussion at two DCA meetings since there is thought to be the possibility that it could flood, or at least raise water levels, in other underground sites in the area.

Prof. Gunn's invitation to the "roadshow" has been circulated to all DCA members and I'm pleased to see that it's also appeared on UKcaving so that more people are aware of the proposal being made.  There is a great deal of useful information known to the caving and mine exploration world and it is sure to be helpful if this is brought forward at the "roadshow".

A reminder that it would be helpful to email John Gunn as far as possible in advance if you intending to come on 23rd. January so that, if there is significant demand, the event can be switched to a larger venue to accommodate us all.

Jenny Potts,
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Offline bograt

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Informative video, thanks Mark.
Just as a relevant point if interest, does anyone know the relative dates between the driving of Magpie Sough and the building of the Mandale aqueduct?. If the sough is the culprit her, and was driven after the aqueduct was built, wouldn't it have had some effect?
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Offline Stuart Anderson

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Funny how the interests of one set of rich landowners in the past are now affecting the interests of another set of rich landowners in the present (and all dressed up in the guise of £££££ ecology)...
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Offline mmilner

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Informative video, thanks Mark.
Just as a relevant point if interest, does anyone know the relative dates between the driving of Magpie Sough and the building of the Mandale aqueduct?. If the sough is the culprit her, and was driven after the aqueduct was built, wouldn't it have had some effect?

Not sure Terry, but there seems to be a lot of doubt about the effect blocking Magpie Sough would have. Have a read of that aditnow thread, very informative. Maybe blocking the mines underneath the middle Lathkill would be better? But they are quite extensive!

I also have great concern on the possible knock on effects if it were to go ahead. As u r probably aware attempts were made a long time ago to keep the Manifold on surface 24/7 as well as the Hamps, (concrete or clay), thankfully many of the major swallets in the Manifold are now on NT land, but there is still a significant amount that 'might' be on Chatsworth land. Depends on where their ownership boundaries actually are. There seems to be some confusion over that, even on their GIS systems....

Regards Mel. DCA Conservation Officer.
Norbert Casteret (Ten Years Under the Earth) and Pierre Chevalier (Subterranean Climbers) were my inspiration to start caving. (And I'm still doing it.) Secretary, Darfar Potholing Club, the Peak District.

Offline unclej

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Informative video, thanks Mark.
Just as a relevant point if interest, does anyone know the relative dates between the driving of Magpie Sough and the building of the Mandale aqueduct?. If the sough is the culprit her, and was driven after the aqueduct was built, wouldn't it have had some effect?

The aquaduct to Mandale was built much earlier than 1881, when Magpie was driven.  The Lathkill dried up in 1884, for the first time ever. Since then it has dried up more frequently and sooner in the season. There were also a number of mills on the Lathkill prior to 1881. You wouldn't build one on the river now! You might mill for a couple of months in the year, that's all.

Offline unclej

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Not sure Terry, but there seems to be a lot of doubt about the effect blocking Magpie Sough would have. Have a read of that aditnow thread, very informative. Maybe blocking the mines underneath the middle Lathkill would be better? But they are quite extensive!

I also have great concern on the possible knock on effects if it were to go ahead. As u r probably aware attempts were made a long time ago to keep the Manifold on surface 24/7 as well as the Hamps, (concrete or clay), thankfully many of the major swallets in the Manifold are now on NT land, but there is still a significant amount that 'might' be on Chatsworth land. Depends on where their ownership boundaries actually are. There seems to be some confusion over that, even on their GIS systems....

Regards Mel. DCA Conservation Officer.

Blocking 'mines' under the Lathkill has been tried for centuries. Putting a control in Magpie Sough will restore the flow to the whole river, not just through the NNR. You will hear more about the proposal to restore year round flow to the NNR when you come to the meeting, and it may surprise you.

Offline bograt

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Just how far upstream are they intending to re-instate the flow? (i.e. raise the water table?). An altitude survey would identify which parts of Lathkill Head, Lower Calesdale, Ricklow, and Critchlow are at risk, as well as some effect around the Crimbo area in Knotlow.
 Has Crimbo ever been traced to Magpie? I seem to recall it being traced to Lathkill.
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Offline Tripod

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I have just watched the Saving the Lathkill video, again, and I believe it to be very misleading. The focus on restoring the flow from Lathkill Head Cave all the way down the valley is surely nonsense? Using pictures of the dried up bed of the river immediately outside the cave entrance when relating how the river much lower down dries up and Trout fry "suffocate" is pure deception. There is a reference in the video to the river drying up in the past but with much longer intervals between these events. This would be while Magpie Sough was open, decades before the collapse at the tail and the re-opening following that in the 1970s? Magpie Sough was re-opened around forty years ago and the frequency of fish rescues have had to increase over more recent years.  Surely clear reasons to look at what else is happening?
Could this really be a case of "restoration of perennial flow ---------" at all? Has there ever been such flow? Can there be any idea of what the river bed looked like and what the natural drainage was like before the present, completely manmade river bed was put in place and before that when Lathkilldale Sough was driven?. It is worth noting that Magpie mine was operating and there was still mining taking place in Lathkill Dale after the river was built, for fishing purposes, in the form we see it now.

Offline Jenny P

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The suggestion has been made that it would be extremely useful to have a 3D survex model of the Lathkill catchment area.  It is believed that there is not one in existence at present so is there anyone who would be willing to volunteer? 

This really comes under the remit of the DCA Conservation Officer so, if there is a volunteer, please contact Mel Milner at conservation-off  [at]  theDCA.org.uk.

Jenny Potts,
DCA Hon. Sec.

Offline graham

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The suggestion has been made that it would be extremely useful to have a 3D survex model of the Lathkill catchment area.  It is believed that there is not one in existence at present so is there anyone who would be willing to volunteer? 

This really comes under the remit of the DCA Conservation Officer so, if there is a volunteer, please contact Mel Milner at conservation-off  [at]  theDCA.org.uk.

Jenny Potts,
DCA Hon. Sec.

If the survey data for the relevant caves exists, then this is a trivial task. if it does not, then it is a non-trivial matter to either survey the relevant caves or digitise extant survey drawings.

I suggest producing the final model in Therion, rather than Survex, though, as the ability to add a map to the surface might be particularly useful in this instance.
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Offline unclej

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I have just watched the Saving the Lathkill video, again, and I believe it to be very misleading. The focus on restoring the flow from Lathkill Head Cave all the way down the valley is surely nonsense? Using pictures of the dried up bed of the river immediately outside the cave entrance when relating how the river much lower down dries up and Trout fry "suffocate" is pure deception. There is a reference in the video to the river drying up in the past but with much longer intervals between these events. This would be while Magpie Sough was open, decades before the collapse at the tail and the re-opening following that in the 1970s? Magpie Sough was re-opened around forty years ago and the frequency of fish rescues have had to increase over more recent years.  Surely clear reasons to look at what else is happening?
Could this really be a case of "restoration of perennial flow ---------" at all? Has there ever been such flow? Can there be any idea of what the river bed looked like and what the natural drainage was like before the present, completely manmade river bed was put in place and before that when Lathkilldale Sough was driven?. It is worth noting that Magpie mine was operating and there was still mining taking place in Lathkill Dale after the river was built, for fishing purposes, in the form we see it now.

The White Peak Rivers Group is made up of all the agencies, including English Heritage, Natural England, Environment Agency, Peak Park as well as many private interests. The group has been meeting for the last two years. This public meeting at Aldern House is designed to present the findings and conclusions from those WPRG meetings, and to give you the chance to ask questions.   It is the third of five meetings being held to discuss proposals, with meetings already held in Monyash and Over Haddon. The support for flow to be returned to the Lathkill is tremedous.  All that is being suggested is a return to a state of affairs that existed in 1880. Any control to flow in any sough will be reversable allowing also a provision for access.

Offline bograt

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I suspect that "Survex" is becoming a generic term after the highly successful Castleton model (much the same as "Hoover" for a sucky thing).
 However, I feel disinclined to download yet another dose of software to read Therion.
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Offline graham

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I suspect that "Survex" is becoming a generic term after the highly successful Castleton model (much the same as "Hoover" for a sucky thing).
 However, I feel disinclined to download yet another dose of software to read Therion.

Lucky for you, we folk can produce models that Survex will understand from the same dataset that produces the more detailed Therion models.
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Offline bograt

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 :lol: :lol: :lol: you are sooo easy to rev up graham
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Offline mulucaver

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I suggest producing the final model in Therion, rather than Survex, though, as the ability to add a map to the surface might be particularly useful in this instance.
Don't suggest Graham, volunteer.
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Offline unclej

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Those of you who are interested in the Lathkill might like to join the Friends of the Dale group on Facebook.

Offline bograt

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Those of you who are interested in the Lathkill might like to join the Friends of the Dale group on Facebook.

Thanks for inviting people to bastardise the Peak District by joining a multinational grab site!!.
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Offline graham

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I suggest producing the final model in Therion, rather than Survex, though, as the ability to add a map to the surface might be particularly useful in this instance.
Don't suggest Graham, volunteer.

I don't have access to the data, mate. If you have, send it over & I'll have the first iteration up and running in a couple of days.

My only condition is that the data is made open and can be uploaded to this site. I don't see any Derbyshire data on there, as yet.
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