Author Topic: New 8mm caving rope from Petzl  (Read 3048 times)

Offline Leclused

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New 8mm caving rope from Petzl
« on: February 09, 2017, 08:50:26 am »
Petzl is also launching an new 8mm caving rope for " expert caving activities". So I presume only for  exploring/expedtions.

https://www.petzl.com/NL/en/Sport/New/SEGMENT-8-0-mm#.WJwsijiQyM8

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Offline pete_the_caver

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Re: New 8mm caving rope from Petzl
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2017, 09:24:59 am »
Petzl is also launching an new 8mm caving rope for " expert caving activities". So I presume only for  exploring/expedtions.

https://www.petzl.com/NL/en/Sport/New/SEGMENT-8-0-mm#.WJwsijiQyM8

Dagobert

So will it be like a Croll, only safe if everything is kept clean?


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Offline Bob Mehew

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Re: New 8mm caving rope from Petzl
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2017, 10:02:46 am »
I note they call it an accessory cord.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 10:25:19 am by Bob Mehew »

Offline MJenkinson

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Re: New 8mm caving rope from Petzl
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2017, 11:32:21 am »
I note they call it an accessory cord.

They also show it threaded through a Simple... They will never market it as rope I guess but surprised they show it in a descender.

Offline Madness

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Re: New 8mm caving rope from Petzl
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2017, 12:15:10 pm »
I note they call it an accessory cord.

A suspect that means that is doesn't meet the standard for Type B ropes.

Obviously Petzl must think that there's a market for this, but there's already plenty of manufacturers of 8mm accessory cord.

Offline marysboy

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Re: New 8mm caving rope from Petzl
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2017, 12:40:10 pm »
also quite surprised they showed it rigged on a simple - since the petzl simple is not rated for 8mm rope/cord

they list 9-12mm only:

https://www.petzl.com/NL/en/Sport/Belay-devices--descenders/SIMPLE

technical instruction also states ropes meeting EM1891 (static) or EN892 (dynamic):

https://www.petzl.com/sfc/servlet.shepherd/version/download/068w0000001bm7ZAAQ

this document (not by petzl) shows that to meet EN1891 (static rope) the diameter must be at least 8.5mm. so a true 8mm cord would not ever meet the standard and couldnt be used with the stop without going against the manufacturers written instruction

http://www.mytendon.com/file/340/Manual_horolezeckych_a_pracovnich_lan.pdf

« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 12:49:03 pm by marysboy »

Offline marysboy

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Re: New 8mm caving rope from Petzl
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2017, 01:00:58 pm »
further, having found that inglesport sell an 8mm BEAL cord  which is "Accessory cord meeting the requirements of EN564 Type L. This product conforms to the specifications of Lightweight caving rope Type L as defined by the French Speleological Federation (FFS), for caving undertaken by expert teams. - See more at: http://inglesport.com/products/beal-semi-static-rope-8mm-antipodes-bcst08.200#sthash.rZTwRpcg.dpuf"

http://inglesport.com/products/beal-semi-static-rope-8mm-antipodes-bcst08.200

the BEAL website agreees:

http://www.beal-planet.com/en/cordes-speleo/293-corde-antipode-8mm.html

and this is what the FFS say about it:

"The semi-static ropes of a diameter of 8 mm cord classified by the standard, are Considered as L-type strings by the FFS. (See Chapter DII Leader's Note: FFS recommendations for progression equipment (strings and connectors) The management mode is identical to that of A or B type ropes. Only marking Is different."

https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=search&rurl=translate.google.co.uk&sl=fr&sp=nmt1&u=http://www.ffspeleo.fr/download.php%3Fchemin%3D./image/uploader/uploadify/article/pdf/%26fichier%3D63-reco_ffs_gestion_epi.pdf&usg=ALkJrhhF1Rtw5jol5sF9npsvagBZKKP_cw


so it sounds like everyone including the manufacturer calls it CORD. Except the FFS, which also class it as a Lightweight Caving Rope for Experts.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 01:09:54 pm by marysboy »

Offline Disgusted from Cornwall.

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Re: New 8mm caving rope from Petzl
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2017, 02:19:33 pm »
Just use the bloody stuff or not. If you need nanny state to hold your hand, stay indoors!

Offline Mark Wright

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Re: New 8mm caving rope from Petzl
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2017, 02:23:53 pm »
The reason why the Petzl Simple isn't rated for 8mm cord (rope) is because they (Simples) are individually tested with a 12kN proof load and an 8mm cord (rope) with a knotted termination would be less than this.

The strongest 8mm cord (rope) that i'm aware of has a MBL of 1700kg so by the time you've lost about 30% of the strength by tying a knot it would likely break when a 12kN force was applied. The manufacturer quoted breaking strengths for rope do not allow for knots. Ropes are tested to their breaking point wrapped around two capstans and then pulled apart.

A 9mm rope with a knotted termination would be strong enough, hence the minimum recommended diameter of 9mm.

8mm cord (rope) is nothing new. We were using it during caving expeditions in Austria in 1989 and i'm not aware of there being any catastrophic failures in use in the past 28 years.

You just have to be very careful not to apply large dynamic forces and always avoid it rubbing against the rock as it is very easily abraded.

As Disgusted from Cornwall says,

'Just use the bloody stuff or not'

Mark

Offline Mark Wright

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Re: New 8mm caving rope from Petzl
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2017, 03:31:11 pm »
this document (not by petzl) shows that to meet EN1891 (static rope) the diameter must be at least 8.5mm. so a true 8mm cord would not ever meet the standard and couldnt be used with the stop without going against the manufacturers written instruction
http://www.mytendon.com/file/340/Manual_horolezeckych_a_pracovnich_lan.pdf

Maybe Tendon have been unable to get an 8mm cord (rope) to pass EN1891B but thats not to say some other manufacturer might not be able to. EN standards don't actually specify a minimum rope diameter, just that they pass all the other tests.

US standards do make rope diameters a requirement which is why US manufactured ropes are unnecessarily thick. They are, as a result, very abrasion resistant which suits their Indestructible Rope Technique (IRT).

Mark

Offline marysboy

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Re: New 8mm caving rope from Petzl
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2017, 05:13:38 pm »
Useful post, thanks

Offline marysboy

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Re: New 8mm caving rope from Petzl
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2017, 10:05:50 am »
it has been pointed out to me that although the simple is not advertised/labelled as being suitable for ropes of less than 9mm, the text of the user instructions does say ropes of 8-9mm can be used:

Quote
Ropes of 8 mm diameter
For experts, the SIMPLE may also be used with
ropes of 8 mm in diameter.

Attention: ropes of 8 to 9 mm diameter
Warning, the braking effect is strongly reduced.
Additional braking systems must always be
used. Check that the rope is compatible with the
method of use required.

Offline pwhole

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Re: New 8mm caving rope from Petzl
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2017, 05:56:12 pm »
I dropped the top pitch of Titan on Chocolate Fireguard's 'special' 8mm a few years ago, using a Stop and a normal steel braking krab, and it was bloody terrifying - I had to push the lever the 'other' way as there was no 'Stop' at all, and I ended up wrapping the rope around my leg as an extra braking device. Watching the Event Horizon ledge arriving rather quicker than usual is something I won't forget in a hurry. Going up was marginally less frightening, as it was very slow and steady, but the constant creaking from my Croll, and the massive bounce on the rope was not pleasant. I did Nettle on it shortly afterwards, and that was better as it's so tight, and I would happily do some pitches now on my Banana/Handy krab, as the free hand and extra friction control is what I was missing! But not sure if I can cope with massive free-hangs on it.

Offline Disgusted from Cornwall.

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Re: New 8mm caving rope from Petzl
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2017, 12:29:11 am »
I did a 60m shaft on a 5 bar rack with maximum friction and maximum hand friction with 8mm. It was quite exciting and in hindsight, I would have put a braking crab above the top bar to slow things down a bit more. It wasn't quite out of control, but it was getting there. I can imagine it being very interesting on a stop (used in the correct manner)

Offline ah147

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Re: New 8mm caving rope from Petzl
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2017, 04:27:10 am »
I dropped a 200m freehanging pitch in france on 8mm.

I used a simple and a Raumer handy.

No problems.


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Offline marysboy

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Re: New 8mm caving rope from Petzl
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2017, 06:32:41 am »
Stop instructions do not suggest 8mm is good idea, and unlike the simple there is no exception for 'experts'.

https://m.petzl.com/sfc/servlet.shepherd/version/download/068w0000001bKRgAAM

Sounds like simple only for 8mm. Makes sense because it has two braking bobbins instead of one, and both hands are free.

Ian

Offline MJenkinson

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Re: New 8mm caving rope from Petzl
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2017, 09:11:12 am »
I dropped a 200m freehanging pitch in france on 8mm.

I used a simple and a Raumer handy.

No problems.


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You weigh piss all.  You wouldn't see me doing a 200m drop on 8mm! I am fast enough on new, wet 10mm rope in Rowten using a Stop.

Offline Mike Hopley

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Re: New 8mm caving rope from Petzl
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2017, 09:54:30 am »
You weigh piss all.  You wouldn't see me doing a 200m drop on 8mm! I am fast enough on new, wet 10mm rope in Rowten using a Stop.

You can easily slow yourself using the "S + O" technique, as shown in . If it's still too fast (unlikely), you can abseil on a half-lock.

I believe the Stop is rated for 9+ mm because, on thinner ropes, the autolock action is ineffective.

Offline MarkS

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Re: New 8mm caving rope from Petzl
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2017, 10:02:28 am »
Like other rope diameters, I've found 8 mm to be extremely variable. Beal Antipodes hasn't, to me, felt loads faster than clean 9 mm. In contrast, Cordes Courant rope seems far faster - very noticeable switching directly from one to another.

Offline andrewmc

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Re: New 8mm caving rope from Petzl
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2017, 11:08:42 am »
You can (in theory, never tried it) put an Italian hitch on your braking krab (saw it on one of the Petzl guides to lowering large weights once).

Offline Mike Hopley

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Re: New 8mm caving rope from Petzl
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2017, 11:18:10 am »
Quote
In contrast, Cordes Courant rope seems far faster - very noticeable switching directly from one to another.

Yes, my (limited) experience of using them is the same. CC is the green speed demon.


Quote
You can (in theory, never tried it) put an Italian hitch on your braking krab

Yes, although might this not twist the rope? Could be troublesome if there is a rebelay below stopping the twists from dropping off the end.

Offline andrewmc

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Re: New 8mm caving rope from Petzl
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2017, 12:43:46 pm »
Yes, although might this not twist the rope? Could be troublesome if there is a rebelay below stopping the twists from dropping off the end.

True - you could always do a 'super munter' instead (which doesn't twist the rope), then you would be pretty much guaranteed not to go anywhere :)

Offline Mike Hopley

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Re: New 8mm caving rope from Petzl
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2017, 02:07:21 pm »
True - you could always do a 'super munter' instead (which doesn't twist the rope), then you would be pretty much guaranteed not to go anywhere :)

Ooh, that's a new one on me. Interesting!

I like that it's also called a "Monster Munter". :lol:

Offline TheGrave

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Re: New 8mm caving rope from Petzl
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2018, 11:13:24 pm »
You weigh piss all.  You wouldn't see me doing a 200m drop on 8mm! I am fast enough on new, wet 10mm rope in Rowten using a Stop.

You can easily slow yourself using the "S + O" technique, as shown in . If it's still too fast (unlikely), you can abseil on a half-lock.

I believe the Stop is rated for 9+ mm because, on thinner ropes, the autolock action is ineffective.

This S+0 is certainly interesting but is it safe to create this rope-to-rope rubbing? I wonder whether your won't increase your chances of melting it on a longer drop.

Offline andrewmc

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Re: New 8mm caving rope from Petzl
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2018, 09:21:34 am »
This S+0 is certainly interesting but is it safe to create this rope-to-rope rubbing? I wonder whether your won't increase your chances of melting it on a longer drop.

I'm not saying I think it is safe, but as the rope is moving continuously the wear is spread out. The dangerous thing is when one rope is moving and the other is not (and so receives lots of heat in the same place).