I thought that it was all to do with daylight penetration? What we really need is an elaborate system of mirrors...
I think we can forget that daylight nonsense.
Quote from: langcliffe on July 06, 2017, 04:21:11 pmI thought that it was all to do with daylight penetration? What we really need is an elaborate system of mirrors...Shame you can't "legally" get those mirrors to the cave! Of course, when the climb was originally done they were almost certainly trespassing...Mike
The term 'trespass' often gets misused. Being on land without the owners permission is not trespass and is also not against the law.
It's only a trespass when you are asked to leave by the landowner/agent.
Thirdly, to be charged with aggravated trespass on CROW land, the landowner would somehow have to prove that you were interfering with their lawful activities while you were underground. If they had some cheese maturation facility in the cave, then fair enough, you might get in the way. Perhaps if they wanted to go caving themselves? Maybe they want to avoid paying for disposal fees and are planning to dump some dead sheep down the exact pothole that you're planning to visit? Generally though, landowners aren't going to be doing anything lawful in a cave and so it would be impossible for you to interfere with it.
Of course there are various types of trespass but none of them need concern us.I will repeat what I said higher up the thread. Being on land without the owners permission is not trespass and is also not against the law. I do it very often. If you were to be challenged and asked to leave and you left without any argument then there would have been no act of trespass and no laws broken.This is an important thing to know when we go caving on Access Land. DEFRA have said that we can enter caves on Access Land. The only thing they are in doubt about is how far into caves we are allowed to go and they have refused to be specific on this point. If you believe what DEFRA says and proceed into a cave anyway then the above would apply.
Of course there are various types of trespass but none of them need concern us.I will repeat what I said higher up the thread. Being on land without the owners permission is not trespass and is also not against the law. I do it very often. If you were to be challenged and asked to leave and you left without any argument then there would have been no act of trespass and no laws broken
Quote from: Simon Wilson on July 09, 2017, 09:41:56 pmOf course there are various types of trespass but none of them need concern us.I will repeat what I said higher up the thread. Being on land without the owners permission is not trespass and is also not against the law. I do it very often. If you were to be challenged and asked to leave and you left without any argument then there would have been no act of trespass and no laws brokenUnfortunately you're wrong in regard to this. Your correct that it is not illegal, however to intentionally enter someone else's land without their permission is civil trespass. It becomes trespass as soon as you do it, not when/if you're asked to leave. Exceptions apply in certain places such as railways or defence location's which are automatically criminal trespass. The police have no power over civil trespass unless you do not leave when asked, your causing obstruction or carrying out an illegal act while you're trespassing. Landowners or those acting on behalf of them such as security staff often have the wrong beliefs in regard to the law surrounding this but in my experience all police involvement has shown that the police do know their stuff and will correct the other party
Quote from: Simon Wilson on July 09, 2017, 09:41:56 pmOf course there are various types of trespass but none of them need concern us.I will repeat what I said higher up the thread. Being on land without the owners permission is not trespass and is also not against the law. I do it very often. If you were to be challenged and asked to leave and you left without any argument then there would have been no act of trespass and no laws broken.This is an important thing to know when we go caving on Access Land. DEFRA have said that we can enter caves on Access Land. The only thing they are in doubt about is how far into caves we are allowed to go and they have refused to be specific on this point. If you believe what DEFRA says and proceed into a cave anyway then the above would apply.I guess that for individual, non-club cavers/trips then they can exercise their CRoW rights to the extent suggested by DEFRA but for club trips orgainised by CNCC member clubs there would seem to be (perhaps tacitcly) an agreement in place between the club, the CNCC and the landowner and I would expect that such an agreement could be seen as having more weight.
OKThehttps://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q56.htm