Author Topic: Discussion about Flask with Tea found in treasury sump.  (Read 3396 times)

Offline ObviousSpectre

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Discussion about Flask with Tea found in treasury sump.
« on: December 03, 2017, 08:15:02 pm »
Is the tea still hot?


Global Moderator Comment This is the discussion about a flask found by Treasury Sump in Peak Cavern. These posts were moved from the Lost and Found Section
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 12:09:57 pm by paul »

Offline alastairgott

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Re: Discussion about Flask with Tea found in treasury sump.
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2017, 08:20:39 pm »
Cold and looked like it has some interesting life growing in it, stringy not mouldy.
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Offline ObviousSpectre

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Re: Discussion about Flask with Tea found in treasury sump.
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2017, 08:24:13 pm »
A tragic loss.  :weep:

Offline braveduck

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Re: Discussion about Flask with Tea found in treasury sump.
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2017, 12:04:07 pm »
Perhaps it's a new method of water tracing ! ;D

Offline alastairgott

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Re: Discussion about Flask with Tea found in treasury sump.
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2017, 12:06:25 pm »

I hope so! :)

I guess its path would have to be via Whirlpool, as I don't think it would get past the boulder piles, though I think we've had some big floods, so perhaps?


There was definitely some sand from the sediment slope at the top of the ladder, it looked fresh. But the rope was still down next to the ladder, I've seen this pointing back towards treasury chamber before (not this time though).
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Offline pwhole

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Re: Discussion about Flask with Tea found in treasury sump.
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2017, 12:10:23 pm »
Nigel showed me a video on Friday of the water going over the Boulder Piles last Tuesday, so who knows? Maybe it's undergone the first known through-trip from East Canal! Anyone lose a flask down Geology?  ;D

Offline Leclused

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Re: Discussion about Flask with Tea found in treasury sump.
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2017, 12:14:40 pm »
Perhaps it's a new method of water tracing ! ;D

Not so strange as it looks like. We use tea bags filled with active coal during dye tracing projects.

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Offline alastairgott

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Re: Discussion about Flask with Tea found in treasury sump.
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2017, 12:18:56 pm »
On closer inspection, after pouring the tea into the sink, it appears to be a "specially selected" teabag.

I guess this makes it an Aldi Teabag, sorry for all the teasnobs out there.

The Flask looks quite intact, the BS EN number is still readable on the bottom (12546-1:2000)
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Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Discussion about Flask with Tea found in treasury sump.
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2017, 03:05:02 pm »
Where exactly was it Al?

I presume it was found at water surface (rather than within the sump) but was it at the Speedwell end or the Peak end?

(Whoever leaves teabags in the flask needs a lesson on how to make decent flask tea!)


Offline alastairgott

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Re: Discussion about Flask with Tea found in treasury sump.
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2017, 03:14:50 pm »
Peak cavern/Treasury Chamber side. It was floating on top of the water, so I went down to get it.

I just don't think anyone would leave it upslope of the sump  :shrug:
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Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Discussion about Flask with Tea found in treasury sump.
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2017, 03:32:08 pm »
Thanks.

I gather it had positive buoyancy? Could it be that someone had a drink from it in Treasury Chamber itself - then forgot to pack it away when they moved on?

Buoyant items don't go through sumps too easily; they tend to get trapped at water surface at the upstream end. If it was left in Treasury Chamber (some 12 m higher up than Treasury Sump) and a big flood caused ponding in Treasury Chamber - but not quite enough of a rise to cause an outflow to Upper Gallery, the flask (now floating) may have gone down the slope with the ebbing sump pool.

I mention this merely as the possibility of the flask having originated from the Peak end of the sump can't be entirely ruled out. Of course, finding the flask's owner (and history) would be extremely interesting, so (like you) I'll be watching this topic closely!

I very much doubt the flask could have come through from Giants Hole though, without it having been crushed by the pressure at depth. The water emerging at the end of Main Rising comes from in excess of 70 m depth (i.e. in excess of 8 bars pressure). We don't know what depth the water comes from at Whirlpool Rising but there's every possibility it's similarly deep. We do know that East Canal is around 25 m deep in drought - but much deeper in flood. However, the flask would not have been crushed if it was completely full of (incompressible) liquid, with no air in it - in which case it could survive such depths undamaged.

Was the flask completely full or part full? If the latter - and it wasn't squashed into a shapeless lump, it's probably not come from Giants Hole.

Offline alastairgott

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Re: Discussion about Flask with Tea found in treasury sump.
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2017, 03:50:14 pm »


I'd hasten to add I don't think its travelled that far, as the lid and the base seem to be in reasonably perfect condition. The base is slightly indented, If maybe under pressure? as it doesn't seem to have been bashed (no scratches).


The first photo gives you an idea where the tea-line was when I found it, an inch or less off the top. space mostly taken up by the inside lid.
 (fresh water now)







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Offline pwhole

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Re: Discussion about Flask with Tea found in treasury sump.
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2017, 04:19:21 pm »
John - I was part-joking about the East Canal solution, and I certainly hadn't thought about the pressure issues involved, so thanks for pointing that out. But I guess if it had been full it would be possible, theoretically at least. I've never seen the downstream end of Treasury, owing to the levels being a bit fierce last time I was down there, and we bailed just beyond Window Inlet, so I've no idea what the passage profile or inclination of the sump connection is, or whether a buoyant object could 'bump' its way along the roof and into Peak. It sounds as though it's a possibility though from your description. Do you have any photos of the downstream end passage, out of interest?

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Discussion about Flask with Tea found in treasury sump.
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2017, 05:01:30 pm »
Thanks both. So there was some air in the flask. I very much doubt that's been down in excess of -70m in a sump or it would probably be crumpled.

I don't have any photos of the Speedwell end of Treasury Sump I'm afraid. Incidentally, although the approach (going downstream) from the Speedwell side is very well watered and offputting, the section of streamway downstream from Treasury Sump is far worse! The limestone dips a more steeply (so the current is even faster) and some of it is hands and knees crawling-sized. It's very hydrophobic. Even worse is Overspill Passage down there; when the Speedwell stream is pulsing you can arrive at Overspill and nothing is flowing down it - so you set off along the crawl. Then the Speedwell stream rises and suddenly your low crawl gets a fast stream. The only other place I've ever been which has such a feeling of the malevolence of water is Mossdale.

Offline Leclused

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Re: Discussion about Flask with Tea found in treasury sump.
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2017, 05:32:05 pm »
Perhaps it's a new method of water tracing ! ;D

Not so strange as it looks like. We use tea bags filled with active coal during dye tracing projects.

It seems that I misinterpreted the original post😄 It was a real bottle that was floating atound in the sumppool
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Offline Maj

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Re: Discussion about Flask with Tea found in treasury sump.
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2017, 06:52:05 pm »
Just to add a point of information regarding the vacuum flask.
Wouldn't it be irrelevant as to whether the flask was full to the brim or empty, since the very name of a vacuum flask should give the clue that there is a vacuum between the inner and outer skins (I'm not aware that stainless steel flasks are manufactured with a different form of insulation  :-\) . Therefore I would suggest that if the flask had been subjected to pressure at depth the outer skin would have crumpled regardless. Only the inner skin would be dependent upon the contents inside.

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Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Discussion about Flask with Tea found in treasury sump.
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2017, 07:42:54 pm »
An interesting point Maj. But the difference between a vacuum and normal atmospheric pressure is roughly 1 bar. The difference between the bottom of Main Rising and a vacuum is over 8 bars.

I've often taken flasks through sumps - there's something quite luxurious about standing up to your shoulders in water in some remote airbell a long way from home, drinking a steaming pint of tea. But I always ensure it's brim full with tea on entry and I refill it to the brim with sump water before submerging again, to prevent collapse.

Offline alastairgott

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Re: Discussion about Flask with Tea found in treasury sump.
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2017, 09:05:37 pm »
Definitely brim full of tea this one, JC.
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Offline MJenkinson

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Re: Discussion about Flask with Tea found in treasury sump.
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2017, 09:05:28 am »
Only cavers could have this technical a conversation about a flask of tea ha!

Offline cooleycr

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Re: Discussion about Flask with Tea found in treasury sump.
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2017, 09:39:44 am »
Maybe when the emergency food dumps were replenished, someone thought it would be a good idea to leave a flask such that anyone trapped by rising waters could have a nice cup of hot tea while they waited for the waters to recede...seems it was not such a good idea after all...and as for those egg and cucumber sandwiches, I dread to think..  ;D
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Offline ZombieCake

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Re: Discussion about Flask with Tea found in treasury sump.
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2017, 10:18:01 am »
Quote
Whoever leaves teabags in the flask needs a lesson on how to make decent flask tea!
Suppose that could be the subject of a workshop at the next Hidden Earth.  Surely leaving the tea bag in the flask would render it rather stewy?  Would a more fuller flavour tea such as Assam be better than say a lighter green tea in an adverse environment?

Offline alastairgott

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Re: Discussion about Flask with Tea found in treasury sump.
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2017, 10:32:50 am »
technical
Suppose that could be the subject of a workshop at the next Hidden Earth.

Cracking idea, we'll have to write it up in the next journal for the Tea and Scone Group.
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Offline pwhole

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Re: Discussion about Flask with Tea found in treasury sump.
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2017, 11:29:03 am »
There's probably a fat Cave Science research grant available too, if someone with too much time on their hands could write up a precis.

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Offline Maj

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Re: Discussion about Flask with Tea found in treasury sump.
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2017, 11:43:53 am »
Hi Pitlamp,
Yes fully aware of the difference between a vacuum and atmospheric pressure. But the point I was making was that since I would have expected a s/steel flask that had been subjected to severe pressure at depth, would have had its outer skin collapsed in towards the inner skin (particularly if the outer skin had lost some of its structural integrity by the odd dent or three). Suggesting therefore that regardless of whether the flask was full or not (with a non compressible fluid), the condition of the outer skin would perhaps be indicative of whether the flask had been subjected to a high pressure. And yes if the flask was empty (compressible medium at 1 bar) then the inner skin may also collapse too.

I've often taken flasks through sumps ........ But I always ensure it's brim full with tea on entry and I refill it to the brim with sump water before submerging again, to prevent collapse.

I'm now curious.
What then prevents the outer skin collapsing towards the inner skin when subjected to the pressure applied by the depth of the sump + 1 bar since there is a vacuum inside the outer skin?

Maj.
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Offline Chocolate fireguard

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Re: Discussion about Flask with Tea found in treasury sump.
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2017, 12:38:37 pm »
I think Maj has to be right.

The (partial but decent) vacuum between inner and outer means that the outer can receive no support from the inner, so it doesn't matter if the flask is empty, full of liquid or somewhere between.