Author Topic: Insurance !  (Read 1032 times)

Online braveduck

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Insurance !
« on: November 28, 2018, 11:55:18 pm »
Heard an interesting talk on the radio this afternoon. It was about the conflict between canoeists and riverbank landowners and riverbank users . The punch line was that the British  Canoe Association are offering
Insurance against trespass claims for Canoeists  who land on a river bank where they are not welcome !
What do people think of this one ? 

Online andrewmc

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Re: Insurance !
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2018, 09:19:10 am »
Heard an interesting talk on the radio this afternoon. It was about the conflict between canoeists and riverbank landowners and riverbank users . The punch line was that the British  Canoe Association are offering
Insurance against trespass claims for Canoeists  who land on a river bank where they are not welcome !
What do people think of this one ?

I'm assuming the trespass that would be insured must be accidental since you can't insure against doing something you know to be illegal.

In which case, is it really any different to the caving insurance we already have which insures us should we be successfully sued for a number of other things?

Offline ali_mac

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Re: Insurance !
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2018, 03:24:58 pm »
Insurance for trespass seems almost entirely pointless.

Trespass, contrary to the signs, is not an offence you can be prosecuted for.
It is also not possible in the UK to insure against yourself committing a criminal act.
Trespass is a civil tort.
You can be sued for damages, but non-punitive damages. That means the landowner can sue for any costs incurred as a direct result of your trespass, but not compensation or punishment beyond a provable, direct cost.
This means they cannot claim for things like "I installed a new fence/security system to prevent it happening again at a cost of £10,000" or "I had to conduct a survey of my entire land to check they had not walked across it at a cost of £18,000"

Any interaction would go as follows:

Canoeist: "whoops, I appear to be on your land"
Landowner: "Please Leave"
<Canoeist decision: Leave or not leave>

If leave:
Canoeist: "Bye"
Landowner: "Bye"
<End of interaction>

If not leave:
Canoeist: "I'm not leaving"
Landowner: <Can use reasonable means to remove canoeist, including reasonable force>
At this point, it most likely becomes Aggravated trespass, and is then a criminal matter, therefore not insurable.


Note: I am not a lawyer, just someone who has had sharp-end experience of this in a "past life"
If I have mis-represented anything, or made error, I would welcome correction!


Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Insurance !
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2018, 07:17:08 pm »
Heard an interesting talk on the radio this afternoon.

Which bit was interesting?

Offline 2xw

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Re: Insurance !
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2018, 08:17:21 pm »
The river access people have an interesting campaign. Quoting various bits of evidence claiming we have a right of access to any navigable river (even quoting the Magna Carts). Wonder if it applies to rivers with a roof on em  ;D

Online Speleofish

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Re: Insurance !
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2018, 08:42:01 pm »
I don't know where the law lies, common sense and politeness suggests you shouldn't totally irritate the opposition. Climbers are mostly happy to avoid cliffs where birds are nesting. Extrapolating to fishing is harder. I believe winter is bad for fishing and canoeists (how unadventurous). During the rest of the year, my very limited knowledge of fishing suggests there may be times of day where fish are more - or less - likely to rise. Could canoeists avoid early morning and late evening?
Failing that, I'd become more militant. If the river in question is/was navigable, there's a precedent for pottering about in boats. If not navigable, it may be a little more difficult...

Online andrewmc

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Re: Insurance !
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2018, 08:17:21 am »
Insurance for trespass seems almost entirely pointless.

...

I don't disagree. But for the reasons you state, such insurance would likely be very cheap.

Offline mikem

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Re: Insurance !
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2018, 08:38:18 am »
The insurance is for claims under civil law, it would not cover aggravated trespass. Canoeists quite frequently have to land unexpectedly to avoid an obstacle in the river, such as a fallen tree, or recover someone who's swum from their boat & could potentially cause damage in the process.

Navigable is a more nebulous concept, as some rivers can only be descended when high, others become dangerous to do so - you could take a boat into Porth yr ogof, but you couldn't get it out again (at the levels required to get it in)...

Mike

Offline caving_fox

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Re: Insurance !
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2018, 09:22:10 am »
Insurance for trespass seems almost entirely pointless.

...

I don't disagree. But for the reasons you state, such insurance would likely be very cheap.

Other than that the Tories are looking at making trespass a criminal offence. It's crept in around the edges of one of the proposed anti-social behaviour laws, as usual without thought (or at least mention) of wider impacts.
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Online Fulk

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Re: Insurance !
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2018, 10:59:49 am »
caving_fox:
Quote
as usual without thought (or at least mention) of wider impacts.

Are you sure? Or is it the Tories sucking up to the big landowners?

Offline darren

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Re: Insurance !
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2018, 12:39:32 pm »


Don't suppose you could provide some references or links to give some depth to this proposed amendment. Maybe who is proposeing the amendment which proposed law. Are these going to go through committes and possible time frames? Otherwise it just sounds like a friend of a friend said.
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Offline darren

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Re: Insurance !
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2018, 12:43:30 pm »
I do have an interest in this. I belong to a trail riding organisation that has a keen interest in this sort of thing. We would like to know about it. We are currently spending £50,000 taking Wiltshire council to court over rights of way issues at Stonehenge.
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Offline ali_mac

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Re: Insurance !
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2018, 01:04:44 pm »
Insurance for trespass seems almost entirely pointless.

...

I don't disagree. But for the reasons you state, such insurance would likely be very cheap.

Other than that the Tories are looking at making trespass a criminal offence. It's crept in around the edges of one of the proposed anti-social behaviour laws, as usual without thought (or at least mention) of wider impacts.

I'd love a source for that?

Offline thomasr

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Re: Insurance !
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2018, 06:43:27 pm »
Riparian  [rights] is a key word regarding access to travel on water. I guess these ancient laws came about due to the very fluid nature of water.  For instance the owner of a few yards of water frontage up to the imaginary mid-point cannot drain off more than a reasonable amount in proportion to his land ownership

Offline caving_fox

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Re: Insurance !
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2018, 09:29:12 am »
Insurance for trespass seems almost entirely pointless.

...

I don't disagree. But for the reasons you state, such insurance would likely be very cheap.

Other than that the Tories are looking at making trespass a criminal offence. It's crept in around the edges of one of the proposed anti-social behaviour laws, as usual without thought (or at least mention) of wider impacts.

I'd love a source for that?


It was something I'd read online, whilst looking for something completely different, made a mental note to check further, never did, and now can't find again. A brief google bring up a times article from 2005 where it was proposed in the SOC and Police Bill, but I haven't been able to find anything more than that.


But then brainwave - it's in Hansard a debate in June - https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2018-06-14/debates/F0CA7D6F-5033-4558-98BA-57117A8AD049/BusinessOfTheHouse?highlight=criminal%20trespass#contribution-0A0C1FD6-B334-4CC3-9A13-8C156FEDB3BA

So a proposal for the minister to consider.... nothing further yet.
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Offline mikem

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Re: Insurance !
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2018, 09:40:53 am »
A recent Telegraph article covered Tories calling for it again to move on travellers.

Mike

Offline darren

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Re: Insurance !
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2018, 12:03:34 pm »
Thanks for that.

Hardly Conservative Party policy to though.

What do you actually mean by Tories?
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Offline mikem

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Re: Insurance !
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2018, 03:09:25 pm »

Offline darren

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Re: Insurance !
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2018, 06:38:02 pm »
Interesting to see how it pans out. Doesn't seem to have much momentum behind it.

Laws made in response to single issues are rarely good laws. Especially when there are other laws that could be used.

I can understand why people call for laws though

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/11/20/traveller-leader-attempted-20k-blackmail-brewery-boss-ordering/
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Offline darren

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Re: Insurance !
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2018, 07:21:08 pm »
Here's an access issue we are currently fighting.

https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/save-public-access-to-stonehenge/
 
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Offline SamT

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Re: Insurance !
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2018, 01:47:05 pm »
Riparian rights are related to the river bank, and access to the rivers edge.  Not really the 'surface' of the water. 

As far as I'm aware, its not really very clear (in law) who owns the surface of a river, and simply by being on it (in a boat), whether or not your 'trespassing'.  I've always assumed the issue only comes into play, once you set foot on land. 

Interesting video linked by badlad in the access threads..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=LYWKGf6L-5k