Author Topic: Pulley jammer warning  (Read 2776 times)

Offline Cripplecreeker

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Re: Pulley jammer warning
« Reply #50 on: June 21, 2019, 07:18:20 pm »
All I meant was that the anchors on ladder pitches are more likely to be directly above the drop than they are on climbs (where someone might use a direct belay), so when you get to the point of having only 0.5 to 1 metre of rope left, freefall is a more likely consequence underground than above.

On multi-pitch sport climbs (the only common situation in which you would use a direct belay with a Grigri) the belay (anchor) is almost always positioned on the line of the climb. It really is no different from belaying on a pitch underground (except using a dynamic rather than semi-static rope).

Offline glyders

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Re: Pulley jammer warning
« Reply #51 on: June 21, 2019, 07:21:04 pm »
The ones more relevant to the situation in discussion is EN341 (and to a lesser extent EN15151).
EN341 like EN15151, does not specify a peak force limit (except for once only use devices).  (I presume 241 is a typo since EN241 is about petrol.)  Could you specify which clause you are citing from which the 120kg mass comes?  My take is EN341 and EN15151 are only concerned that the device does not break apart under reasonable shock loads and not about limiting the load which could be incurred by the person using the device.
I was simply looking at the link upthread to the Petzl tests for the RIG. There is no mention of a dynamic lanyard in the tests of top-belaying, so the loading and slippage quoted was relevant to the use in caving.

Offline glyders

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Re: Pulley jammer warning
« Reply #52 on: June 21, 2019, 07:26:06 pm »
Yes, but they usually keep themselves in the system, which provides additional shock absorption
When guiding it is standard to belay clients directly. This leaves the guide readily able to render assistance/rescue, which would take more steps and effort if they were in the system like with a normal climbing pair.
When I'm doing it, I use an ATC in guide mode. I've considered using it in caves but haven't because a) I don't want gritty ropes carving it up and b) I am less worried about weight and so bring a RIG.

Offline mikem

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Re: Pulley jammer warning
« Reply #53 on: June 23, 2019, 07:50:17 am »
Interestingly the technical notice for the RIG shows it as a rope access or rescue descender & a type 6 belay-rappel device (picture shows belaying from below), but for usage on an anchor, it only shows lowering & giving slack (not belaying a climber up from above). Additionally, "The RIG is not suitable for use in a fall arrest sytem.":
https://www.petzl.com/sfc/servlet.shepherd/version/download/0681r0000078gStAAI

Offline Cripplecreeker

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Re: Pulley jammer warning
« Reply #54 on: June 23, 2019, 12:05:45 pm »
See here for information on using the RIG as a belay device: https://m.petzl.com/INT/en/Professional/Primary-uses-of-the-RIG?ProductName=RIG&Familly=Descenders#CT-177-4

‘Fall arrest system’ is industrial terminology and refers to personal fall arrest (using via ferrata lanyards would be the ‘sport’ equivalent). It does not mean that the RIG can’t be used for belaying.

Offline mikem

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Re: Pulley jammer warning
« Reply #55 on: June 23, 2019, 07:25:34 pm »
The test situation on the original document is a fall arrest.

From that Primary Uses document: "The RIG on the anchor allows for belaying a person who is using another progression system". It only shows belaying a climber from below.

Offline Cripplecreeker

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Re: Pulley jammer warning
« Reply #56 on: June 23, 2019, 11:58:21 pm »
From that Primary Uses document: "The RIG on the anchor allows for belaying a person who is using another progression system". It only shows belaying a climber from below.

No. It quite clearly also shows belaying a climber from above (using a direct belay). It shows giving out slack, taking in slack and holding a fall.

Offline mikem

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Re: Pulley jammer warning
« Reply #57 on: June 24, 2019, 07:22:50 am »
Yes, giving out slack when LOWERING, taking in slack ON DESCENT, the only statement on belaying upwards from above is that climber is attached to something else for ascent...

Offline andrewmc

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Re: Pulley jammer warning
« Reply #58 on: June 24, 2019, 07:51:01 am »
"Belaying with RIG attached to an anchor
The RIG on the anchor allows for belaying a person who is using another progression system.

The user must never let go of the brake-side rope. The user must always make sure to keep slack out of the rope between the RIG and the anchor, to reduce the risk of a fall."

'another progression system' means climbing a ladder or something... it just means that the RIG is not the progression system and that it is truly belaying and not hauling.

Offline andrewmc

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Re: Pulley jammer warning
« Reply #59 on: June 24, 2019, 07:53:15 am »
'Stopping a fall'


This is incontrovertibly belaying. Stopping a fall of a weight or person on a rope descending directly down from the Rig which is attached to an anchor.

There are also:
Giving slack on descent


and
Taking up slack on ascent