Right then folks, humour me again.

What experience does anybody have with fast caving?
What is the history of fast cavers?

Whether fast movement itself - speed crawling, brisk walk/jogging down tunnels. Possibly lightweight/super minimal gear to aid squeezes and lugging chunky ropes around etc.
I suppose I am thinking in terms of Ueli Steck and predecessors and the evolution of mountaineering techniques in the last ~50 years (correct me if I'm wrong), from fixed rope, many months-long siege expeditions, through to just a few days, and now down to hours on some ascents. Is there much the scope for such a thing in caving?

I am leaning towards a 'no' due to the nature of it. SRT gear is already cut down to the minimum (unlike climbing where people can solo instead of taking 10's of nuts, pitons, twin ropes and so on). And there isn't much choice with regards to rigging and fixed ropes - very much a stalwart feature of smooth, water-blasted vertical caving. And of course much of the mountain weight saving practice is mainly relevant due to the effects of altitude, less of an issue in caving, (what about stale air O2 content?).

Before someone snaps (as always seems to be the case on here from my lurking experience so far), I am not advocating or suggesting that caving could or should be be turned into a quantifiable, timed, Olympic, whatever, 'sport'. I am just curious. Arse covered.

Didn't Pete Livesey do some speedy stuff?

There are only two speed records of Derbyshire caves that I'm aware of.

As far as I know the standards set are the time is car-to-car, so includes the walk in, and everything includes time spent rigging (though I suppose you could have separate categories for pre-rigged).

- The record for Oxlow - West Chamber and back out is 40 minutes (rig & de-rig) and was set by Rostam & Sam Goodyear.

- The record for Giants lower round trip (down to bottom of crabwalk and back over the top) is 23 minutes and was set by Katie Eavis and (I think) Henry Rockliff.

Obviously I hope this doesn't lead to an unnecessarily lax approach to cave safety or cutbacks to gear!

An interesting topic, and probably quite likely to cause some debate  If you are in any doubt as to how fast we now cave have a read of some of the old exploration logs and trip reports. A lot of it is very reminiscent of siege tactics, with ladders and life-liners staged throughout the cave. They were 'ard then! The deep alpine caving we see so much of now is almost unfeasible using this method. 'Speed' (efficiency?) has come a long way with more efficient techniques. Saving weight (and bulk) makes a huge difference to efficiency of movement through the cave. As does knowledge of the route - go on a digging trip with some regulars and see if you can keep up!

There was an interesting discussion on reducing the hardware on an SRT kit here http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=3030.0 My take was that it can be made a lot lighter, but was probably best saved for specific trips with a high ratio of horizontal:vertical caving.

Reducing rope diameter down to 8 or 8.5mm makes a huge difference to weight.

There is also a method (I forget the name) of rigging a cord as you descend to use as a 'pull up' for your SRT rope - this allows you to do very deep trips with only a single static rope (and a spare).

I think a bunch of probably hung-over, probably student cavers raced from one entrance to the other in Goatchurch. I believe there is a video on youtube somewhere.

In fact, here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL2QLxrfmBc

Sorry, no idea how to embed the video and I'm not learning now...

I think Dow to Prov has a trip time of less than an hour not sure who has that record could be Simon Beck? Me personal best was a very slow in comparison one hour 47 and it was mainly because I read my watch wrong, thinking I would be late for a call out. (I was not trying to set a time or anything) though I could have cut another 15 mins off if I went through the water rather than going through gypsum traverse but I was cold in just a fleece and could not face any more cold water and prob another 20 if I did not take a bag with me, but on my own I certainly don't want to compromise on emergency gear!

Alex said:

Me personal best was... on my own

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Sums it up really. Cave solo and you'll always* be much faster

* assuming of course you don't need so much gear you can't carry it all yourself!

meanderthal said:

Reducing rope diameter down to 8 or 8.5mm makes a huge difference to weight.

There is also a method (I forget the name) of rigging a cord as you descend to use as a 'pull up' for your SRT rope - this allows you to do very deep trips with only a single static rope (and a spare).

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Cordelette - I believe

Thanks Northerner, they are very impressive trip times!

Meanderthal, I think your emphasis on efficiency over speed is of course the key aspect here, better pacing, knowledge of the route etc. I've read about that technique in Alpine Caving Techniques, never had reason to try it though!

I've recently bought some new SRT kit components, whilst I have shaved some weight off, the difference is negligible and you'd be better looking at new boots and helmet or something, assuming the kit being used is already fairly modern.

However the big difference is the pack/fold-ability of it all. - Tiny!

You are right about trips with a good ratio of H:V.

Reading that thread is interesting, some good discussion.

Having used a 120 sling with a (three way loaded!) HMS to tie into for climbing, I've decided that would be too uncomfortable for me unless in a wetsuit...

And yes. In general solo would be the way to go in this activity.

One other thing that I've recently found makes my trip times MUCH faster is carrying rehydration salts.

It is very easy to become dehydrated on a long trip (particularly if you are going fast on your own), drinking water helps, but you're still loosing a lot of salt by sweating and this needs to be replaced.

Dehydration causes clumsiness, error of judgement, exhaustion etc, so keeping hydrated allows you to perform at your best for longer (and helps conservation in the process as a tired dehydraed caver is much more likely to cause damage).

Many caves have a good supply of water (up to you if you want to drink it ) so all you need to carry is a small tablet or sachet of rehydration salts and something to mix it in.

This simple step has literally halved my exit times on long trips!

A comparison with fell running seems apt. They do the same routes as a 'normal' hiker, but carry 1/3 of the weight of gear, and move correspondingly faster. With equally correspondingly serious consequences when they do get it wrong.

If you don't have to wait for anyone and keep moving you can proably cave in a lot lighter and more efficient clothing - although it'll get trashed very quickly. Cap'nChris had come very lightweight SRT gear he used to play about in Rhino I believe.


But for me that would lose one of the aspects of caving that makes it so different from the other outdoor sports - camaraderie and the the teamwork required to get everybody through the cave.

Yes some good points everyone. I thumbed through a friend's alpine climbing book a few weeks ago (Training for the New Alpinism) which whilst going into great depth about gear and techniques was also awash with fantastic sport science and physiology & nutrition information.

Personally I've never taken the training and diet approach to hobbies, I've never felt athletic and driven enough. It's such an simple idea that's often discarded on hungover Sunday trips however. Be rested, be hydrated, be fed.

As you say caving fox, there is the teamwork and camaraderie side to balance too, it needn't be a solo or group activity exclusively. Much in the same way those fell runners run alone on race day, I suspect many enjoy running with friends and clubs as well. Good comparison in terms of the gear and speed reduction, I like it.

Yes Alex as far as I know my 1hour 1 min Providence Pot-Dow Cave through trip is the quickest. I realised at the time and recently that it's probably beatable by maybe ten minutes, it's just risky moving at those speeds in there and I wouldn't relish having to do it again..
I wouldn't recommend it and doubt anybody is as familiar with the place as I am - alone and at speed and around 40 thru trips - to stand a chance of beating it anyway. Not a boast btw just being realistic on the subject..... Si
     

Didn't know Katie and Henry had done the Giants Round trip in 23 mins.

We put Bob Dearmans claim of 26 mins to the test about 10 years ago, and I did it in 36 min,  I was definitely slow coming back over the top suffering from overheating in my neofleece, so the claimed 26 seemed very feasible.

Simon's post on Dowbergill makes entertaining reading and delves into some interesting thoughts around fast caving, solo caving and great familiarity with a particular cave.
http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=17303.msg227852#msg227852

caving_fox said:

A comparison with fell running seems apt. They do the same routes as a 'normal' hiker, but carry 1/3 of the weight of gear, and move correspondingly faster. With equally correspondingly serious consequences when they do get it wrong.

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I'd say the biggest difference between fell running and hiking isn't the weight, but not stopping and the ability to tackle rough ground (usually combined with confident navigation) allowing for more direct route choice - coming back to efficiency again. The consequences of a solo caver getting it wrong are greater than a solo fell runner where help can be phoned in. I don't know many fell runners who leave a call out though (and I think we should!)

You mean like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0kjGX0nZbU

I think somewhere like South Wales lends itself to that sort of thing. I've heard of people running about in Daren en route to further in.

Sam Richards said:

You mean like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0kjGX0nZbU

I think somewhere like South Wales lends itself to that sort of thing. I've heard of people running about in Daren en route to further in.

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Quality Sam! I love the HUD.

I have been reminded of the status of some caves and want to make it clear I'm not suggesting people run around where conservation is a concern.

I wouldn't personally, particularly as I would inevitably stack it and break an ankle!

PeteHall said:

I think a bunch of probably hung-over, probably student cavers raced from one entrance to the other in Goatchurch. I believe there is a video on youtube somewhere.

In fact, here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL2QLxrfmBc

Sorry, no idea how to embed the video and I'm not learning now...

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I have gone from one entrance to the other in total darkness beating the prev record by 2 matches.

In which direction?