A balanced view?

[PaulW]

you would have to go and ask them that, as its doubtful any of them can reply to you here 

 

[Pegasus]

you would have to go and ask them that, as its doubtful any of them can reply to you here 

Yes they could reply here 

 

[PaulW]

you would have to go and ask them that, as its doubtful any of them can reply to you here 

Yes they could reply here 

now if there was a like button I could have just clicked that 

 

[droid]

Would the website publish, if provided with one, a Reflections piece supporting the Crow access point of view?

Talk to them direct.

There's a 'Contact' button

 

[Hughie]

Positive to some is total unrestricted access everywhere.
Positive to others is restricted access for conservation.

Of course, you could find the outcome is one which none of you had actually considered........

 

[droid]

Of course, you could find the outcome is one which none of you had actually considered........

Very true.

And it may well be totally out of the control of any caving organisation....

 

[Brains]

Of course, you could find the outcome is one which none of you had actually considered........

Very true.

And it may well be totally out of the control of any caving organisation....

Would that be same way that climbing is out of control of the BMC? What additional controls do you think BCA needs over holes on access land, after all, sites of particular merit can be gated and access controlled under CRoW legislation

 

[droid]

I haven't a clue.

And neither, for all your confidence, have you.

 

[Brains]

I haven't a clue.

And neither, for all your confidence, have you.

Very true 
On a less controversial note my eldest wants to go caving / walking with her bf and me, so I havent been that bad a parent after all

 

[droid]

Very true 
On a less controversial note my eldest wants to go caving / walking with her bf and me, so I havent been that bad a parent after all

Need that 'like' button 

 

[Pitlamp]

Of course, you could find the outcome is one which none of you had actually considered........

Very true.

And it may well be totally out of the control of any caving organisation....

Would that be same way that climbing is out of control of the BMC? What additional controls do you think BCA needs over holes on access land, after all, sites of particular merit can be gated and access controlled under CRoW legislation

Here in the Dales I think you'll find that (except for very special circumstances) the concept of gating caves is not very popular.

Or practical for that matter - would love to see someone design a gate to go over Hull Pot, for example.

I thought one of the key things which those who think the CRoW job is a good idea was to improve access. Am finding it difficult to see how shoving gates on caves can be reconciled with such a laudable intention.

 

[Brains]

My starting point is open access for all, however I realise (and there is allowance for this in the CRoW act), that certain areas should be of limited access or off limits for various reasons. This could be delicate flora or fauna, or geophysical features. I would imagine that these would be relatively small features within the landscape, or that whole area would not be designated open access land. As far as gates on caves go, they should be the last resort after other avenues have been tried.
For example, if you are heading for a cave on the fells, you will probably have a fair amount of info before you go; location, rigging guide, survey etc If in the same places it was stated that such a site is to be avoided because of cave life, delicate mud or stalls, being a water supply, etc I would hope as a responsible caver the trip would be rescheduled. There is provision for scientific endeavour to ensure the reasons are still valid, or for other reasons. Only if a location is being damaged should a gate be considered as a last resort.
I am aware of a nationally important bat roost, also being historically significant, that has several gated entrances, and a couple of open ones as well. Sad to say certain groups feel it acceptable to have midwinter rave parties with fireworks, fire breathing, music, lighting, large crowds, cooking and sleeping over. The waste (of all sorts) is never removed and much vandalism such as spray painting and pulling down of stacks of rocks, even historical features, seems de rigeur. The bats of course are not happy and the history is degraded. Attempts to rectify this are often sneered at and actively discouraged

 

[andrewmcleod]

My starting point is open access for all, however I realise (and there is allowance for this in the CRoW act), that certain areas should be of limited access or off limits for various reasons. This could be delicate flora or fauna, or geophysical features. I would imagine that these would be relatively small features within the landscape, or that whole area would not be designated open access land. As far as gates on caves go, they should be the last resort after other avenues have been tried.

(I will stop making comparisons with climbing at some point!)
Many climbing crags have 'access restrictions' for various reasons. In a (very small) number of cases the landowners (on non-access land) do not wish climbing to take place (and make this known, e.g. Vixen Tor); often the BMC (who deliberately do not act as an access body) will strongly suggest that a crag is avoided, at least until they have attempted to talk to the landowners (which often calms things down). Many crags have 'bird bans' at certain times of the year; while disturbing a Schedule 1 bird during nesting is a criminal offence (so breaching a ban might lead to criminal behaviour) the bans themselves are voluntary. Some crags have restrictions for other reasons, or restrictions in how to access the crag or descent routes (i.e. if there is an easy walk-off this is often less damaging than abseiling off trees). Some sites have 'informal' access (e.g N Wales Slate quarries where climbing is explicitly banned but tolerated) and may not be suitable for group use or certain more obvious areas (Dali's Hole right by the footpath in the quarries) may be best avoided... An _extremely_ small number of crags require you to ask for permission in advance (Tintagel Head is the only one I can think of) but this is far from the norm.

All of these restrictions are, in general, a) voluntary and b) very-well abided by without a need for access control. Crucially, you (almost) never have to plan in advance, which is kind of important for climbing to avoid the weather!

What 'enforcement' of these restrictions is carried out by climbers. For example Cheddar Gorge has a negotiated access agreement where certain parts are off-limits in the summer because of the danger to visitors below (one of the few restrictions which I guess has 'legal' weight behind it). If climbers are seen breaching that agreement, other climbers will usually let them know very quickly (possibly not too politely!).

I am aware of a nationally important bat roost, also being historically significant, that has several gated entrances, and a couple of open ones as well. Sad to say certain groups feel it acceptable to have midwinter rave parties with fireworks, fire breathing, music, lighting, large crowds, cooking and sleeping over. The waste (of all sorts) is never removed and much vandalism such as spray painting and pulling down of stacks of rocks, even historical features, seems de rigeur. The bats of course are not happy and the history is degraded. Attempts to rectify this are often sneered at and actively discouraged

Are these cavers?

 

[Brains]

Those responsible consider themselves to be Urbex, a pastime that usually entails illegal access to buildings and sites that are often in a state of decay. Sadly graff tagging seems to be essential, as do pictures of burning wire wool being swung around and people in gas masks for some reason. If pushed they may admit to being mine explorers, but tend to look on being a caver as an insult!

 

[Alex]

All of these restrictions are, in general, a) voluntary and b) very-well abided by without a need for access control. Crucially, you (almost) never have to plan in advance, which is kind of important for climbing to avoid the weather!

Just like caving which is my main issue with permits.

 

[Wayland Smith]

Saw one urbex report recently where he was proud about breaking into a site that with one phone call or E-mail
He could have had a guided tour with an expert!

 

[Roger W]

But isn't the whole point of such activity simply getting to where you are not supposed to be and have no right to be?  Nothing to do with the history or beauty of the place...?

 

[braveduck]

Somebody on here mentioned that crags were never banned to climbers.In the late
60s some crags near Barnsley were discover by the climbers as a good spot to go.
The landowner soon put a stop to this by covering the holds with  Axel Grease and
as far as I know they still remain unclimbable  !

 

[pwhole]

The landowner must have been an amazing climber if he could apply axle grease to the holds too 

 

[droid]

There may well be similarities in access issues between caves and crags, but there are also differences.

One being the result of any accident taking place. Recovery from crags is usually a lot more straightforward and less labour intensive/time consuming than recovery of a casualty from a cave.

This issue has caused access problems in the past. It may well do again.