A balanced view?

[AR]

But isn't the whole point of such activity simply getting to where you are not supposed to be and have no right to be?  Nothing to do with the history or beauty of the place...?
[/quote

Since this thread is about a balanced view, urbexers fall onto a sliding scale in my experience - at one end, there are those interested in documenting the state of abandoned sites who take a genuine interest in the history of those places, while at the other end, there are the mindless willy-wavers who think online bragging about breaking into places is what it's about.

 

[Alex]

There may well be similarities in access issues between caves and crags, but there are also differences.

One being the result of any accident taking place. Recovery from crags is usually a lot more straightforward and less labour intensive/time consuming than recovery of a casualty from a cave.

This issue has caused access problems in the past. It may well do again.

Why does that matter? Its all volunteers so no cost to public purse except for a maybe police man to stand around.

 

[braveduck]

Bit more to it that Alex .The Police provide Insurance cover to all volunteer
rescue organisations ,

 

[bograt]

Even more, when volunteers are involved in an official rescue callout (999) they are assisting the Police in their duty of 'Protection of the people' and the Home Office foots the bill (or used to, Dave the Tory may have changed the rules)
I recall many years ago it was suggested that rescuers submit a claim form for expenses to help swell cave rescue coffers.

 

[droid]

There may well be similarities in access issues between caves and crags, but there are also differences.

One being the result of any accident taking place. Recovery from crags is usually a lot more straightforward and less labour intensive/time consuming than recovery of a casualty from a cave.

This issue has caused access problems in the past. It may well do again.

Why does that matter? Its all volunteers so no cost to public purse except for a maybe police man to stand around.

It matters because the necessary volumes of helpers/rescuers, vehicles and general fuss can sometimes annoy the landowners. To the point where entrances may be closed.

 

[bograt]

There may well be similarities in access issues between caves and crags, but there are also differences.

One being the result of any accident taking place. Recovery from crags is usually a lot more straightforward and less labour intensive/time consuming than recovery of a casualty from a cave.

This issue has caused access problems in the past. It may well do again.

Why does that matter? Its all volunteers so no cost to public purse except for a maybe police man to stand around.

It matters because the necessary volumes of helpers/rescuers, vehicles and general fuss can sometimes annoy the landowners. To the point where entrances may be closed.

I was trying to put that into words, well said Droid 

 

[Brains]

This is of course an issue for all caves, but perhaps less so on access land if caving is indeed permitted under CRoW - access would be enshrined in law

 

[Pitlamp]

This is of course an issue for all caves, but perhaps less so on access land if caving is indeed permitted under CRoW - access would be enshrined in law

Folk seem to have forgotten the concerns about when we want to ask permission for digging.

 

[jasonbirder]

Presumably it will be the same as it is now...
Landowners with good caver relations will say yes to digging...Landowners that don't like Cavers will say no...
Its pretty difficult to imagine a situation where currently the Landowner allows digging and access to caves on his Land and also has walkers etc on his land via CRoW, but upon cavers being recognised as having the same rights as walkers decides he no longer wants the digging he previously allowed...

 

[Pitlamp]

Precisely - "good caver relations". It's a very fragile thing and all I would ask is that those with strong views in any direction keep that firmly in mind.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Quite right Jasonbirder. Nobody could forget the issue of permission for digging. The anti CRoW people go on and on about at every opportunity. It's a contrived argument and I suppose you can just about imagine that there is a very remote possibilty that could happen but in reality it's nonsense. The most difficult part about getting permission for digging on access land is almost always because they are SSSIs and that's nothing to do with the landowner.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Precisely - "good caver relations". It's a very fragile thing and all I would ask is that those with strong views in any direction keep that firmly in mind.

That is so so obvious to everybody and it so much doesn't need saying.

 

[tony from suffolk]

Apparently, by allowing cavers to cave under CRoW, all formations will be trashed, landowners will be frantically concreting in any entrances on their land, and not forgetting dark mumblings of some unmentionable terrors lurking just beyond the descriptive powers of  the anti-CRow- ers. Heaven help us all...

 

[Pitlamp]

Quite right Jasonbirder. Nobody could forget the issue of permission for digging. The anti CRoW people go on and on about at every opportunity. It's a contrived argument and I suppose you can just about imagine that there is a very remote possibilty that could happen but in reality it's nonsense. The most difficult part about getting permission for digging on access land is almost always because they are SSSIs and that's nothing to do with the landowner.

Er -actually it starts with the land owner. Fail to get their co-operation and goodwill and you can forget even asking NE.

Simon - could you be a little more accommodating about other people's legitimate concerns?  In case your "going an and on" comment above was aimed at me, I've not actually mentioned this on here for many months. I'm actually keeping an open mind on this issue generally and listening to (evidence based) argument.

These concerns about digging permission are real and they haven't gone away. Just dismissing it as "nonsense" isn't the best way to win anyone over to your way of thinking. It doesn't necessarily have to detract from what you're trying to achieve. I really have no wish to fall out with anybody; all I ask is that those who are pushing in any particular direction just bear these concerns very much in mind. Surely that's not too much to ask of someone who is representing all cavers?

Oh - by the way; happy new year!

 

[Wayland Smith]

I wish that I could find or remember where I saw a posting.
It was from France I think and was from a cave discoverer who was explaining that they found beautiful, well decorated caves.
To protect them they did not publish any details then gated, disguised and hid the entrances.
I suppose France is a much bigger country with more caves, but it seemed an extreme view to me.

 

[tamarmole]

I wish that I could find or remember where I saw a posting.
It was from France I think and was from a cave discoverer who was explaining that they found beautiful, well decorated caves.
To protect them they did not publish any details then gated, disguised and hid the entrances.
I suppose France is a much bigger country with more caves, but it seemed an extreme view to me.

Sounds like British mine explorers!

 

[Simon Wilson]

I wish that I could find or remember where I saw a posting.
It was from France I think and was from a cave discoverer who was explaining that they found beautiful, well decorated caves.
To protect them they did not publish any details then gated, disguised and hid the entrances.
I suppose France is a much bigger country with more caves, but it seemed an extreme view to me.

Do you think that hasn't happened in the Dales?

 

[Alex]

Quote from: Wayland Smith on Today at 12:12:12 pm

I wish that I could find or remember where I saw a posting.
It was from France I think and was from a cave discoverer who was explaining that they found beautiful, well decorated caves.
To protect them they did not publish any details then gated, disguised and hid the entrances.
I suppose France is a much bigger country with more caves, but it seemed an extreme view to me.




Do you think that hasn't happened in the Dales?

Yorkshire yeti cave being one I know of.

 

[droid]

Pitlamp states my particular attitude to this debate far better than I could.

'Evidence based argument'.

 

[Antwan]

Somebody on here mentioned that crags were never banned to climbers.In the late
60s some crags near Barnsley were discover by the climbers as a good spot to go.
The landowner soon put a stop to this by covering the holds with  Axel Grease and
as far as I know they still remain unclimbable  !

There not bad now, theres a few big pockets that still seem fresh even though its so old. Must have been good stuff!