A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?

[The Old Ruminator]

Re trash. Part of Balch Cave remains ungated. Many white formations have been smeared in mud.




Somebody has deliberately rubbed mud onto lots of white stal. Thank goodness the other quarry caves are gated. You want open access and this is what you get.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Re trash. Part of Balch Cave remains ungated. Many white formations have been smeared in mud.

Somebody has deliberately rubbed mud onto lots of white stal. Thank goodness the other quarry caves are gated. You want open access and this is what you get.

More dirty tricks. This is the sort of thing I called "dirty tricks" after the newspaper article made similar implications. The dirty trick you are now playing is to imply that if DEFRA accept that CRoW cover caves then there will be what you call "open access" to all caves when you know that there are a very small number* of gated caves on Access Land on Mendip and that there are the means for those caves to remain gated.

This is what I really don't understand, why are so many Mendip cavers so strongly against CRoW when it will make no difference to Mendip caves whatsoever?

* I've lost track now. First there were two gated caves then four and now the number seems to be increasing by the day.

 

[Simon Wilson]

I found where I got the figure two from. I asked the question and Graham Mullen answered (the red bit) with "two significant ones". I apologise for forgetting that he also said that there are others. I can't quote the normal way within the forum because the topic is locked.

National Access Discussions / Re: Access, CRoW and the BCA
? on: June 25, 2014, 08:52:07 pm ?
Quote from: Simon Wilson on June 25, 2014, 08:46:00 pm

    I'm sorry for being lazy, I could look this up but please remind me: Which Mendip caves are on Access Land and currently have locked gates on them?


The two significant ones (there are others) are St. Cuthbert's Swallet & Upper Flood Swallet. Both of these have very good management systems in place which are well-supported by local caving clubs & have enabled those caves to resist the depredations of other, similar, sites in the area.

Let's all be quite clear on this matter. There are a very small number of caves involved and there is the mechanism to keep them gated. The effect of CRoW on Mendip will be zero so let's please have less of the dirty tricks.

 

[droid]

Mendip cavers can decide what they like, Simon. That is 'democracy' Your allegations will make little difference.

And they can say what they like too. That's called 'freedom of speech'.

If you don't like it, jog on.

 

[cavermark]

Balch Cave is not on access land.

It could be gated and remain unaffected by any changes to the interpretation of CROW.

The damage is caused by idiots, not a campaign for changes to the intrerpretation of CROW.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Mendip cavers can decide what they like, Simon. That is 'democracy' Your allegations will make little difference.

And they can say what they like too. That's called 'freedom of speech'.

If you don't like it, jog on.

But is it democracy? Do the extremists like Cookie really represent the majority view of Mendip cavers?

For democracy to work people need to be informed and do Mendip cavers understand that the effect on Mendip caves will be zero while the effect in the North will be of great benefit. The question at the top of this thread matters and the great difference in scale between the effect in the South and the effect in the North matters.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Every cave matters, Simon. Every one.

 

[mrodoc]

Balch Cave is not on access land.

It could be gated and remain unaffected by any changes to the interpretation of CROW.

The damage is caused by idiots, not a campaign for changes to the intrerpretation of CROW.

There are clearly a lot of idiots in Yorkshire where CRoW access is more significant.  I cannot believe some of the wanton damage I have seen when I have visited caves up north.  I am concerned that allowing any old bod to wander down a cave up there will just make things worse than they are already. Yes, it would be nice to just go anywhere but it is unlikely to happen. Hang gliders never got things altered and I can remember similar arguments over this back in the late 70's.

 

[PeteHall]

Somebody has deliberately rubbed mud onto lots of white stal. Thank goodness the other quarry caves are gated. You want open access and this is what you get.

Deliberate damage will not be prevented by locking caves. If someone wants to deliberately trash a cave, they will do so, gate or not. Hunters Inn Sink being a prime example.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Balch Cave is not on access land.

It could be gated and remain unaffected by any changes to the interpretation of CROW.

The damage is caused by idiots, not a campaign for changes to the intrerpretation of CROW.

There are clearly a lot of idiots in Yorkshire where CRoW access is more significant.  I cannot believe some of the wanton damage I have seen when I have visited caves up north.  I am concerned that allowing any old bod to wander down a cave up there will just make things worse than they are already. Yes, it would be nice to just go anywhere but it is unlikely to happen. Hang gliders never got things altered and I can remember similar arguments over this back in the late 70's.

I had that conversation 20 or 30 years ago, contrasting the sad mess I had seen in Dales caves and contrasting them with the protected sites I prefer to visit in Somerset and Wales.

 

[cavermark]

You'll never get a hang glider down most UK caves Mrodoc 

 

[Cookie]

Do the extremists like Cookie really represent the majority view of Mendip cavers?

I've been promoted to an extremist. 

I'm not though. I just think that BCA should follow its own rules.

 

[jasonbirder]

I just think that BCA should follow its own rules.

How about a moral rule, thats universally accepted...

From kids in the playground deciding whether to play football or tracker...to the most powerful nation on earth deciding its leader...

When you take a vote...the side that loses accepts the verdict with good grace...and doesn't waste everyone's time trying to delay, obstruct and obfuscate

 

[Oceanrower]

Why, oh why, does this site not have a 'like' button?

 

[Peter Burgess]

Do the extremists like Cookie really represent the majority view of Mendip cavers?

I've been promoted to an extremist. 

I'm not though. I just think that BCA should follow its own rules.

I think that makes you an extremist. Just accept the truth.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Balch Cave is not on access land.

It could be gated and remain unaffected by any changes to the interpretation of CROW.

The damage is caused by idiots, not a campaign for changes to the intrerpretation of CROW.

There are clearly a lot of idiots in Yorkshire where CRoW access is more significant.  I cannot believe some of the wanton damage I have seen when I have visited caves up north.  I am concerned that allowing any old bod to wander down a cave up there will just make things worse than they are already. Yes, it would be nice to just go anywhere but it is unlikely to happen. Hang gliders never got things altered and I can remember similar arguments over this back in the late 70's.

Please say exactly in which caves you have seen wanton damage and what the damage was. How much caving have you done in the North? Have you got off the beaten track very much?

One of the most popular caves is Lost Johns'. That is a cave almost entirely devoid of calcite. The worst damage I can think of is rope grooves worn onto the pitch heads. Maybe you will disagree but I think the importance of that damage is insignificant. It has no effect on cave biology and it's only effect is aesthetic. I quite like it aesthetically; it reminds me of the heritage of caving. There are even a few old wooden ladder rungs to be found in Lost Johns' which I think are interesting artifacts and I always leave them.

 

[Cookie]

I just think that BCA should follow its own rules.

How about a moral rule, thats universally accepted...

From kids in the playground deciding whether to play football or tracker...to the most powerful nation on earth deciding its leader...

When you take a vote...the side that loses accepts the verdict with good grace...and doesn't waste everyone's time trying to delay, obstruct and obfuscate

Hanging is the classic argument against that.

When the great British public  are asked there is always a majority for hanging the worst criminals.

Parliament consistently fails to enact the necessary legislation despite the will of the people.

Democracy is not as simple as enacting the result of the last vote.

 

[jasonbirder]

Democracy is not as simple as enacting the result of the last vote

Nuff said...

 

[Peter Burgess]

Democracy is not as simple as enacting the result of the last vote.

Votes are quite handy things though. So are Guiding Principles. But if you don't know what your Guiding Principles are, or aren't bothered about them ..........

 

[Peter Burgess]

How about a moral rule, thats universally accepted...

From kids in the playground deciding whether to play football or tracker...to the most powerful nation on earth deciding its leader...

I'll tell you why, Jason. Because it's stinks of peer pressure, that's why. Why should I be made to play football, just because some gobby lad (in the theoretical playground) says I have to? I won't stop you playing football, but don't expect everybody else to join your team.