A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?

[Simon Wilson]

Can we please stay on topic.

There are very few caves which are Access Land on Mendip and the few that are gated can remain gated.

So what's your f*ing problem? It's a simple question.

 

[jasonbirder]

You make my point very well...
Most of here aren't amateur lawyers or politicians
We're just cavers...we like going underground and we like the pub...
We're members of a club and we know that we were asked a question...
We answered...and the votes were duly counted up...with a majority in favour of CRoW access...
Most of us don't want or need to know anymore than that...
I don't doubt someone that's into committees and registries and constitutional amendments can point out some small print somewhere that says that even though we won the vote ACTUALLY we're not smart enough to understand the legalese or process or procedure...
AND for THAT reason we're going to be ignored...
But I do know whats RIGHT and I do know what's WRONG

and when i hear people say

Democracy is not as simple as enacting the result of the...vote 

or

Votes are quite handy things though...But

I, and EVERYBODY else knows its wrong...

 

[jasonbirder]

I'll tell you why, Jason. Because it's stinks of peer pressure

Errr...yes, I think that's exactly the point of democracy...the minority have to go along with the majority...

 

[Peter Burgess]

So tell me why I must play football. I hate it, and that will mean the team will probably lose. Is that what you want?

 

[cavermark]

No one's asking you to play football. Just to allow the people to play who want to play. The game won't affect your back garden, but will improve access to some excellent pitches in many areas! 

 

[andrewmcleod]

I'll tell you why, Jason. Because it's stinks of peer pressure

Errr...yes, I think that's exactly the point of democracy...the minority have to go along with the majority...

Excellent democracies recognise the rights of minorities, though. The BCA have their mandate. They are going and carrying out that mandate now; that doesn't mean that the BCA regions have to descend into civil war or that the opinions and concerns of the 'losing' side can or should now be ignored. Cavers in the North have masses to gain, and little to lose. Cavers in the Mendips will, I believe, be barely affected by a change in the current understanding of CROW law other than some paperwork for 2-7 caves. But some people think different, and there is a long way between believing someone is wrong and believing their opinion should be ignored.

In other words I am getting bored of the bickering, and regret any part I have played in it!

 

[RobinGriffiths]

Of course, you only need to look at the BSA to see what happens when a group seeks to control access. 

 

[bograt]

Just as a slight aside;

Considering DEFRA's current interpretation of CRoW and caving, I trust all access control bodies have moved their gates to the 'limit of daylight' to allow existing permitted access to happen ----??

Similarly, access to all those dozens of little holes that do not go beyond daylight is also permitted---.

 

[RobinGriffiths]

Maybe they'll just install a bit of shading over the entrances and leave the gates where they are?

 

[bograt]

Maybe they'll just install a bit of shading over the entrances and leave the gates where they are?

You mean similar to the blinkers they appear to be wearing now?

 

[mrodoc]

Balch Cave is not on access land.

It could be gated and remain unaffected by any changes to the interpretation of CROW.

The damage is caused by idiots, not a campaign for changes to the intrerpretation of CROW.

There are clearly a lot of idiots in Yorkshire where CRoW access is more significant.  I cannot believe some of the wanton damage I have seen when I have visited caves up north.  I am concerned that allowing any old bod to wander down a cave up there will just make things worse than they are already. Yes, it would be nice to just go anywhere but it is unlikely to happen. Hang gliders never got things altered and I can remember similar arguments over this back in the late 70's.

Please say exactly in which caves you have seen wanton damage and what the damage was. How much caving have you done in the North? Have you got off the beaten track very much?

One of the most popular caves is Lost Johns'. That is a cave almost entirely devoid of calcite. The worst damage I can think of is rope grooves worn onto the pitch heads. Maybe you will disagree but I think the importance of that damage is insignificant. It has no effect on cave biology and it's only effect is aesthetic. I quite like it aesthetically; it reminds me of the heritage of caving. There are even a few old wooden ladder rungs to be found in Lost Johns' which I think are interesting artifacts and I always leave them.

I was rather thinking of calcite, mud floors etc. Examples are Gaping Gill (and that was on a recent visit and off the beaten track), Easegill (Colonnades are a good example), Committee Pot (there seems be mud where doesn't have to be) and other sites that other cavers I am sure will know off. Sometimes cave descriptions blatantly encourage potential damage. I recall visiting Illusion and before it reading a description of a way to view formations that was inviting damage. We cannot protect all these caves but one has to ask whether there is just more traffic in the northern systems or people don't get educated about cave conservation.

 

[cap n chris]

one has to ask whether ... people don't get educated about cave conservation.

It would be good to know that CNCC region clubs provide conservation induction information to new members, or host conservation presentations or training. Certainly there are some excellent clean-up maestros and so I'm guessing there is a vibrant conservation ethos.

 

[Peter Burgess]

No one's asking you to play football. Just to allow the people to play who want to play. The game won't affect your back garden, but will improve access to some excellent pitches in many areas! 

Jason wants me to support what he wants. I won't be doing that. Maybe the analogy would be better if it related to team supporters rather than the teams themselves. You may win the league but I won't be encouraging your team to do so.

 

[cavermark]

That doesn't sound like cricket to me. Monkey Tennis anyone? 

 

[north doodle]

On Mendip the significant caves have excavated entrances. eg: upper flood, cuthberts,grebe, waterweel, five buddles, brimble pit

These were dug with landowner permission. a condition of that permission was that the entrance had to be gated and in some cases a regulated access system be put in operation.

This puts these caves in a separate category which will not be subject to any changes to the interpretation of open access. I

cannot see Natural England/DEFRA giving cavers free range to dig for caves on open access land.

In the Burrington Combe area which is both common land & open access the caves are open. Many years ago there was a dig in the East Twin Brook Valley which entered a cave.

It was dug without permission. The landowner had it filled in. Even today it is necessary to get permission to carry out underground digs in Burrington caves.

On Mendip we have always maintained good relationships with landowners,respecting their agricultural needs. This has enabled cave exploration to be conducted with very few exceptions.

One of the latest digs is at Vurley Swallet which is on open access land. Permission was given,but the entrance had to be gated.

Our regional council(CSCC) works hard to preserve our access to caves by amicable discusions with landowners. We don"t  need a sledgehammer to crack a nut!

 

[Madness]

Peter

I don't think Jason wants you to support what he wants. I think he wants you to stop undermining something that has been democratically decided as being beneficial to cave access, something with massive pro's and in reality very few con's (if it's done right)

 

[cavermark]

Our regional council(CSCC) works hard to preserve our access to caves by amicable discusions with landowners. We don"t  need a sledgehammer to crack a nut!

So you won't need to use the sledgehammer - no harm done. But why stop those in other areas (with much bigger nuts ) from using it?

 

[Andy Sparrow]

I don't suppose the officials at DEFRA really give a toss whether cavers enter caves on access land.  They are probably just overstretched and under-resourced and don't want any to have divert time, manpower and money to resolving the thorny legal questions and issues it might throw up.

Let us imagine that the interpretation of the act is changed to include caving....

DEFRA receive a letter complaining that Upper Flood and Waterwheel are gated denying cavers their rights.  What do they do?  Probably nothing for days, weeks or months while they ruminate on it.  Then they take the simplest option - write to the landowner, in this case Somerset County Council, and say we have this letter - what is your position?  After more rumination of days, weeks or months, SCC write back with this response....  They point out that they own an outdoor centre (Charterhouse) in close proximity and that the children use the access land, unaccompanied, for orienteering.  They point out they have a duty of care to keep the caves gated and locked.  So where would we go from here?  Which is the greater legal obligation - open access, or duty of care to the public, in particular children visiting the SCC owned centre?

 

[Simon Wilson]

On Mendip the significant caves have excavated entrances. eg: upper flood, cuthberts,grebe, waterweel, five buddles, brimble pit

These were dug with landowner permission. a condition of that permission was that the entrance had to be gated and in some cases a regulated access system be put in operation.

This puts these caves in a separate category which will not be subject to any changes to the interpretation of open access. I

cannot see Natural England/DEFRA giving cavers free range to dig for caves on open access land.

In the Burrington Combe area which is both common land & open access the caves are open. Many years ago there was a dig in the East Twin Brook Valley which entered a cave.

It was dug without permission. The landowner had it filled in. Even today it is necessary to get permission to carry out underground digs in Burrington caves.

On Mendip we have always maintained good relationships with landowners,respecting their agricultural needs. This has enabled cave exploration to be conducted with very few exceptions.

One of the latest digs is at Vurley Swallet which is on open access land. Permission was given,but the entrance had to be gated.

Our regional council(CSCC) works hard to preserve our access to caves by amicable discusions with landowners. We don"t  need a sledgehammer to crack a nut!

I don't get the point of your post. CRoW is irrelevant to all of what you say. What sledgehammer? Are you for or against CRoW?

 

[Simon Wilson]

I don't suppose the officials at DEFRA really give a toss whether cavers enter caves on access land.  They are probably just overstretched and under-resourced and don't want any to have divert time, manpower and money to resolving the thorny legal questions and issues it might throw up.

Let us imagine that the interpretation of the act is changed to include caving....

DEFRA receive a letter complaining that Upper Flood and Waterwheel are gated denying cavers their rights.  What do they do?  Probably nothing for days, weeks or months while they ruminate on it.  Then they take the simplest option - write to the landowner, in this case Somerset County Council, and say we have this letter - what is your position?  After more rumination of days, weeks or months, SCC write back with this response....  They point out that they own an outdoor centre (Charterhouse) in close proximity and that the children use the access land, unaccompanied, for orienteering.  They point out they have a duty of care to keep the caves gated and locked.  So where would we go from here?  Which is the greater legal obligation - open access, or duty of care to the public, in particular children visiting the SCC owned centre?

I can't see the relevance of what you say. CRoW won't make any difference to gates on Mendip. The scenario you describe would never happen because cavers are ahead of the game.