BCA Council Meetings.

[jasonbirder]

Pointing out potential difficulties that are best discussed before the act isn't 'undermining' whatever you might think, Jason

The difficulties were pointed out and expressed at length, BEFORE the referendum...a vote was taken...and the express wishes of the overwhelming majority of Cavers was to go ahead with ensuring Caving is acknowledged under CRoW...

It was most emphatically NOT press ahead with having caving confirmed under CRoW if all the concerns and wishes of those opposed can be answered and resolved at some unspecified point in the future...

 

[jasonbirder]

As you say, it is important that club/ council reps canvass the opinion of the members they represent and vote accordingly.

If you believe that despite an overwhelming majority of Cavers voting in favour of ensuring CRoW access is confirmed...

Then its probably hard to square with the views of regional Reps which if I understand it are...

Mendips - vehemently opposed to CRoW
Derbyshire - cautiously in favour, but don't want to rock the boat too much...would prefer consensus and agreement moving forward...
Yorkshire - cautious - can see benefits but concerned about digging/landowner relations, might prefer to see a voluntary agreement - or changes to existing access agreements rather than CRoW being tested in the court of law or aggressively campaigned for....

So despite a substantial Mandate from members...where's the representatives that are going to respect that?

 

[PeteHall]

So despite a substantial Mandate from members...where's the representatives that are going to respect that?

If the representatives cannot represent the membership, due to their own conflicting opinions, perhaps it is time to for them to step down? 

 

[mch]

As you say, it is important that club/ council reps canvass the opinion of the members they represent and vote accordingly.

If you believe that despite an overwhelming majority of Cavers voting in favour of ensuring CRoW access is confirmed...

Then its probably hard to square with the views of regional Reps which if I understand it are...

Mendips - vehemently opposed to CRoW
Derbyshire - cautiously in favour, but don't want to rock the boat too much...would prefer consensus and agreement moving forward...
Yorkshire - cautious - can see benefits but concerned about digging/landowner relations, might prefer to see a voluntary agreement - or changes to existing access agreements rather than CRoW being tested in the court of law or aggressively campaigned for....

So despite a substantial Mandate from members...where's the representatives that are going to respect that?

Jasonbirder may like to check the Minutes of the DCA Open Meeting held on 1st November 2014 at which CROW was debated and the following resolution agreed by all but 1 person present "That the Secretary be instructed to vote forthe BCA proposal."Hardly "cautiously in favour"!

 

[andrewmcleod]

I assume we don't have the results of the referendum broken down by region. It would be interesting to know if Southern region cavers were for or against CROW. If they were against then obviously their representative body would be entirely justified in representing them.

 

[jasonbirder]

Many apologies...I'd read a number of statements from people associated with the DCA that said things along the lines of CRoW can work with agreement from all parties and further discussion can overcome disagreements and conflicts...so assumed that was the stance...
I had forgotten about the DCA vote - my apologies

 

[Bob Mehew]

I assume we don't have the results of the referendum broken down by region. It would be interesting to know if Southern region cavers were for or against CROW. If they were against then obviously their representative body would be entirely justified in representing them.

No, see http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=about:crow_poll_result_2014.pdf for the declared result.  Whilst I have heard from one person in the south that their club members were evenly split, I am aware of other clubs on Mendip where the support from those that turned up was mostly against CRoW.  I think all club reps at CSCC meetings (after a few obtained views of their clubs) voted against CRoW; hence the CSCC position.  I, for one, accept it is a fair reflection of the current position on Mendip.

 

[Peter Burgess]

You've saved me saying much the same thing Bob. Please stay quiet about how reps from regions represent their members. It's their business to decide how to do that.

 

[jasonbirder]

Are people seriously STILL suggesting that after the most extensive (and expensive) consultation with their members and a comprehensive referendum...giving a substantial and unambiguous decision...

That Regional and club Reps could (at least in theory) have a veto over this?

I'm interested in the process...because there are only two logical conclusions...

If yes, the whole process is a farce and the BCA do not represent the best interest of their members...and its position as the national body for caving is called into question...

If no, what on earth is the point of discussing it with regional and club reps?

 

[Peter Burgess]

You don't understand what the word "veto" means, clearly.

 

[Brains]

You've saved me saying much the same thing Bob. Please stay quiet about how reps from regions represent their members. It's their business to decide how to do that.

I would have thought in a fair just and open society discussing democracy, that asking questions about how representatives come to a decision on how to vote is highly pertinent.
Not everyone may be as thorough as yourself Peter in canvasing opinion prior to a vote. We know from elsewhere that votes can be bought, representatives influnced, and behind the scenes power plays go on.
You have stated an exemplary position and I thank you for it. I hope it stands as an example to all who represent the views of others. Qusetioning however is something we should all do, and I would offer that "It's their business to decide how to do that (represent their base)" is NOT a valid position but should be open to discussion

 

[cavermark]

You've saved me saying much the same thing Bob. Please stay quiet about how reps from regions represent their members. It's their business to decide how to do that.

The business of the reps.... or the members?

Why shouldn't cavers from anywhere in the UK (or abroad) be allowed to take an interest in what happens in particular region?

 

[badger]

You've saved me saying much the same thing Bob. Please stay quiet about how reps from regions represent their members. It's their business to decide how to do that.

I would have thought in a fair just and open society discussing democracy, that asking questions about how representatives come to a decision on how to vote is highly pertinent.
Not everyone may be as thorough as yourself Peter in canvasing opinion prior to a vote. We know from elsewhere that votes can be bought, representatives influnced, and behind the scenes power plays go on.
You have stated an exemplary position and I thank you for it. I hope it stands as an example to all who represent the views of others. Qusetioning however is something we should all do, and I would offer that "It's their business to decide how to do that (represent their base)" is NOT a valid position but should be open to discussion

or even that the club rep putting only there opinion across and not even bothering to poll club members

 

[Peter Burgess]

Put up or shut up. And even if a northern caver doesn't like the way CSCC does its business, it is still only the CSCC member clubs' business to be concerned about it. Some countries use first past the post, some countries use a form of PR. How each democratic nation functions is its own business. In a way the same is true of our regional bodies. You may not like it, but that's a fact.

 

[PeteHall]

or even that the club rep putting only there opinion across and not even bothering to poll club members

I am a member of two Mendip clubs and have NEVER been canvassed on my opinion on ANYTHING, neither have I ever been sent minutes from ANY CSCC meetings...

In short, I have no reason to believe my reps know the opinions of all their membership, nor that the membership even know how their reps vote on any issues in question.

That said, I am not the most regular at club meetings so may have missed something, but I wouldn't have thought an email would be too hard to organise...

 

[Cookie]

Pete,

What a load of utter tosh. I am your club rep. and I'm very clear on your opinion - you are happy for caves to shut and access be lost in pursuit of this.

I have raised it several times on the club mailing list, of which you are an active member.

It has been discussed at several club meetings but as you say you weren't there.

The CSCC Minutes are publicly available on the website.

Or join the CSCC mailing list if you want them to come direct to your intray.

You are also welcome to the CSCC meetings themselves.

Frankly, how much more consultation do you want?

 

[jasonbirder]

but I wouldn't have thought an email would be too hard to organise...

Email...what do you think this is? The 21st Century!

 

[cavermark]

Pete,

What a load of utter tosh. I am your club rep. and I'm very clear on your opinion - you are happy for caves to shut and access be lost in pursuit of this.

I'm interested in how many caves and how much access you think this will apply to.

 

[Cookie]

Hi Mark,

Pete can speak for himself but I think he said this more to underline his passion on the issue rather than he had any particular caves in mind.

 

[PeteHall]

Pete - you are happy for caves to shut and access be lost in pursuit of this.

What a load of utter tosh.

Sorry to re-order your comments Cookie, if that is your opinion of th majority of British cavers, who voted in favour of the BCA campaign for CRoW to apply to caving, I really don't know what to say.

Looking through my emmial history from 2 years ago, you are right, there was some discussion on the Cheddar Caving Club email, prior to the BCA poll and I tried to explain my position to you. A poll of ChCC members was suggested to determine the club position, but this never happened.

However since the poll much has changed on this front, but no further consultation has occured on the subject within the ChCC despite the fact that the CSCC continues to oppose the wishes of the majority of UK cavers.
I trust that despite your strong personal views on the subject, you maintain a neutral position on behalf of the club, since the club has not agreed a position?

The CSCC minutes may be available online, but considering the meeings are only 4 times a year, would it be that hard for our CSCC rep to report back to the club, either at the club meetings, or by email after the CSCC meeting? This is however an internal issue for the ChCC to deal with and I will raise it at the next meeting.

Back on topic and in summary, I stand by my assertion that I have no reason to believe my reps know the opinions of all their membership, nor that the membership even know how their reps vote on any issues in question.