BCA Council Meetings.

[PeteHall]

Hi Mark,

Pete can speak for himself but I think he said this more to underline his passion on the issue rather than he had any particular caves in mind.

Cookie, I believe Marks question relates to your claim that applying CRoW to caving will cause "caves to shut and access be lost in pursuit of this"

Which caves will shut?

 

[cavermark]

Cookie, I believe Marks question relates to your claim that applying CRoW to caving will cause "caves to shut and access be lost in pursuit of this"

Which caves will shut?

Correct.
I understand that some sites may be too sensitive to discuss on an open forum but can you give an idea of numbers or scale?
What about an informal regional meeting to discuss the specific sites you think will be affected - so pro CRoW members could understand the perceived problems and hopefully provide solutions?
We discussed access issues relating to the Bradwell catchment in Derbyshire at T-pot's excellent symposium last weekend - and came up with a number of good practical steps we can take.

 

[Brains]

Hi Mark,

Pete can speak for himself but I think he said this more to underline his passion on the issue rather than he had any particular caves in mind.

Cookie, I believe Marks question relates to your claim that applying CRoW to caving will cause "caves to shut and access be lost in pursuit of this"

Which caves will shut?

Yes, which caves will be affected, or at least how many. Are they on access land or non-access land. Why are the landowners in question so upset about something that would either reduce their liability, or make no difference at all depending on the land classification?

PB has stated he canvassed his club before acting as a rep, it is alledged you did not do so formally. Was it by a consensus at the meeting, a committee decision or just your personal standpoint. Can you justify to yourself and your club how you represented them?

 

[PeteHall]

PB has stated he canvassed his club before acting as a rep, it is alledged you did not do so formally. Was it by a consensus at the meeting, a committee decision or just your personal standpoint. Can you justify to yourself and your club how you represented them?

To be fair to Cookie here, he emailed the club prior to the poll and encouraged discussion on the subject. I chose to contact Cookie privately and also made some public contributions on the club mailing list, though I had little to add as Ed W gave a very well researched and well reasoned argument in favour.

The point I was trying to make is that I have not seen any systems in place to demonstrate that the club members views were represented, in either of the Mendip clubs of which I am a member. In the case of the Cheddar, we are a small club so it would be reasonable to assume Cookie could well have spoken personally with each member.

My intention was never to point a finger at an individual.

 

[Madness]

So,

How many people are on the BCA council and of those how many are anti CRoW?

It could be an interesting meeting!

 

[Martin Laverty]

A good question as the seemingly exhaustive BCA website [ http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/doku.php ] does not appear to acknowledge that the BCA has officers at all unless you go to depths of reading its constitution or the minutes of its meetings [Structure page says it is just made up of Constituent Bodies, Regional Councils, and Member Clubs...; elsewhere Committees are addressed, but no names or contact details are given...]

An oversight or weakness in website design which might be usefully addressed, I think, or are its officers to be regarded as a private affair unless they choose to out themselves?

 

[andrewmcleod]

A good question as the seemingly exhaustive BCA website [ http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/doku.php ] does not appear to acknowledge that the BCA has officers at all unless you go to depths of reading its constitution or the minutes of its meetings [Structure page says it is just made up of Constituent Bodies, Regional Councils, and Member Clubs...; elsewhere Committees are addressed, but no names or contact details are given...]

An oversight or weakness in website design which might be usefully addressed, I think, or are its officers to be regarded as a private affair unless they choose to out themselves?

About -> Contact BCA

lists BCA officers and their contact details.

 

[Martin Laverty]

Damn, I was sure I'd looked there! As a colleague once said at work: "If you want to keep something secret, put it in [lots of] writing ..."

Sorry, BCA website designer...

 

[Cookie]

PB has stated he canvassed his club before acting as a rep, it is alledged you did not do so formally. Was it by a consensus at the meeting, a committee decision or just your personal standpoint. Can you justify to yourself and your club how you represented them?

To be fair to Cookie here, he emailed the club prior to the poll and encouraged discussion on the subject. I chose to contact Cookie privately and also made some public contributions on the club mailing list, though I had little to add as Ed W gave a very well researched and well reasoned argument in favour.

My intention was never to point a finger at an individual.

Pete, thank you for this.

Pete - you are happy for caves to shut and access be lost in pursuit of this.

What a load of utter tosh.

Sorry to re-order your comments Cookie, if that is your opinion of th majority of British cavers, who voted in favour of the BCA campaign for CRoW to apply to caving, I really don't know what to say.

When I use the word "You" replying to you I mean you - Pete Hall. I do not mean all of British cavers. Also it is not my opinion. I am repeating your words. Quite how you've interpreted what I wrote I do not understand.

The "utter tosh" refers to your statement that your opinion has never been canvassed by your club Rep.

@Brains & Mark. Please re-read the posts. You have the wrong end of the stick.

 

[jasonbirder]

Lets be honest...its incendiary in the extreme to say anyone in favour of CRoW access applying to caves

(Which lets not forget is the the mandated wish of the BCA) is

happy for caves to shut and access be lost in pursuit of this

 

[cavermark]

Cookie - My interpretation was that you knew what Pete's views were, and that he was "pro CRoW being extended to caves", and that your opinion was that pro CRoW people are "happy for caves to be shut and access to be lost".
If that was just your opinion of Pete and not pro CRoW people in general, then I apologise for getting the wrong end of the stick.

 

[cavermark]

Ps - I should probably change my avatar... no sinister connotations intended 

 

[PeteHall]

When I use the word "You" replying to you I mean you - Pete Hall. I do not mean all of British cavers. Also it is not my opinion. I am repeating your words.

This stick must have a lot of wrong ends as I think you have one of them too Cookie. I presume you are refering to a sarcastic comment I made to you about about getting locked out of caves being good for conservation, but perhaps the winking emotocom did not make this clear. I would also point out that this was in response to your suggestion that campaigning for CRoW to apply to caving would somehow cause pissed off landowners who would lock us out of their caves. If handled correctly, there is no reason for this to be the case, which was in fact the whole gist of my previous email to you.

Anyhow, is it ok to stop the personal bickering and go caving, then drink beer? 

 

[Cookie]

Cookie - My interpretation was that you knew what Pete's views were, and that he was "pro CRoW being extended to caves", and that your opinion was that pro CRoW people are "happy for caves to be shut and access to be lost".
If that was just your opinion of Pete and not pro CRoW people in general, then I apologise for getting the wrong end of the stick.

No worries. You've got it now 

 

[Cookie]

This stick must have a lot of wrong ends as I think you have one of them too Cookie. I presume you are refering to a sarcastic comment I made to you about about getting locked out of caves being good for conservation, but perhaps the winking emotocom did not make this clear.

I did take your comment with a pinch of salt, hence my comment:

Pete can speak for himself but I think he said this more to underline his passion on the issue rather than he had any particular caves in mind.

Top tip: this is the wink icon  not this one  which is the thumbs-up icon.

Anyhow, no worries,  we can chat at the Charterhouse meeting this evening.  :hug: