Calling out CRO - Protocol

[Jopo]

The cave rescue and, indeed the mountain rescue, can ONLY be authorised to initiate a rescue by the police.
But if you had to call them out and also you knew the number of the person who organises the rescue team, its probably worth giving them a "heads up" call AS WELL as the official call via the police.

Not quite sure what you mean by authorised. Covered by third party insurance when called out by police yes but neither cave or mountain rescue needs to be authorised.

I have informed the police that the SMWCRT has initiated a rescue from information indicated on the call out board at Penwyllt or from a phone call direct to a warden. It goes along the line "We have a incident in ??? and are responding. Can we have a incident number please?" In my experience there has never been a refusal to give a incident number. A SMWCRT callout warden will always try and contact the police before calling out any team members but sometimes you just have to act.

It is right that the police should be called and asked for cave rescue and the time given for out should be the actual callout time - although I do confess that we have looked at a overdue ticket and decided to either wait a while (giving wardens a heads up) or act immediately. It depends. Is the overdue party experienced and could be slow or are they known to be experienced?. In the latter we would always act soonest. In 40 odd years of being a warden I cannot recall a bollock and now I have retired it's for others to decide

Jopo

 

[potholer]

(I also know of two fairly recent NWCRO call outs that were set into motion and then terminated because the party was late out ? the extra hour might have been a factor?)

Is that 'a callout was set in motion and then concluded because a party who had just missed their callout were found to be out', or something else?

 

[kat]

In response to Jacklepup?s post of the 11th November I would like to clarify that NWCRO does not ?wait an hour beyond the time out?. 

A Call-Out time is exactly that, it is the time you wish the ?responsible person? to make the call to the Police / cave rescue team.  If NWCRO receives a call from the Police due to an overdue party NWCRO will always respond immediately as appropriate.  The nature and level of that initial response will always however be determined by the individual circumstances of the Call-Out. 
 
It is for you as cavers to determine what is an appropriate Call-Out time for your trip ? this should however always be specific to individual trips taking into account several factors such as the experience of the party, expected / potential delays etc. 

An Expected Time Out (used by some) is different and again is exactly what it says.  It leaves the ?responsible person? (generally someone that you trust with the experience and knowledge to make a judgement) who has been left the ETO a degree of flexibility in determining when to make a Call-Out to the Police / cave rescue team. 

If anyone has any queries specific about NWCRO then please contact me direct ? details on the NWCRO website.

Kat
NWCRO Secretary

 

[Fiona]

Jackalpup

What we were taught in law of tort regarding people with first aid training making a mistake was that they could be held liable as they have been trained. So a doctor, police man, fireman who made a mistake leading to greater harm could be held liable. Someone with no training would not be held liable.

I believe the reasoning behind this is that in English law there is no duty to rescue someone and therefore if you do you assume responsibility for the person and therefore can be liable for mistakes.

I can double check this information later as it is my recall and therefore I may be mistaken.

Fiona

 

[Mark Wright]

I think you will find the idea of a first aider being held responsible if they make a mistake is a load of tosh. I'm pretty sure there was a test case some years ago now which set a 'Samaritans Precedent'. I had this discussion with the first aid instructor the last time I revalidated my first aid qualification.

Mark

 

[potholer]

On the general issue of callout times and how people decide what they should be, I wonder how often (nationally) there are rescues initiated:

a) as a result of someone being reported overdue
b) where a rescue was actually necessary
and
c) where response time would make a meaningful difference to outcome

For example, if a group is uninjured and wandering around trying to find their way out of somewhere relatively benign, even if they do need help finding their way out, it may not make a huge difference to them if they had decided to leave a callout for N+1 hours rather than N hours.

 

[glyders]

There is a big difference between someone making an easy mistake or a gross error of judgement. There is also a big difference between, say, an off-duty paramedic and someone with a first aid certificate.

Being too violent with chest compressions in the heat of the moment and breaking ribs is understandable for most people; attempting to perform a tracheotomy with a biro is not.

 

[Roger W]

On the general issue of callout times and how people decide what they should be, I wonder how often (nationally) there are rescues initiated:

a) as a result of someone being reported overdue
b) where a rescue was actually necessary
and
c) where response time would make a meaningful difference to outcome

For example, if a group is uninjured and wandering around trying to find their way out of somewhere relatively benign, even if they do need help finding their way out, it may not make a huge difference to them if they had decided to leave a callout for N+1 hours rather than N hours.

The problem is that when a party fails to exit a cave when expected, those on the surface - both the "responsible person" and the resue teams - don't know what is going on down below.  Thomas, Richard and Henry might just be an hour or so late coming out because of the time spent posing for photographs.  Or a rock might have fallen - as sometimes happens - cracking someone on the head and causing serious injury...  And if you are the one lying at the bottom of TFD or wherever with a cracked skull, you won't be happy if the CRO say "Time for another pint or two, lads.  An extra hour or two on the callout time has been show to make no difference in 82.36% of cases."

 

[biffa]

R.e. call out time.  There is no problem in making the 999 call and then discussing it with the controller/warden who fields the call.  I think I am correct in saying that you can expect a call back from the warden or controller, particularly if you request it.  They can probably find someone local to go and check the entrance or put the team on standby so any response would be quicker. 

In Derbyshire we use the SARCALL system which is a web based SMS call out system so calling out, cancelling a call out or putting out a standby takes a matter of minutes on a computer rather than the days of old when it relied on people ringing down phone lists.

R.e. HSE getting involved with first aid negligence, my understanding is that we are not at work when carrying out cave rescue so probably beyond the remit of HSE.  This is why we do not have to use (industrially standard) double rope techniques.  Should there be a civil case against someone then it will probably be thrown out of court and cave rescue teams are covered under the MREW public liability policy.

 

[Mark Wright]

As far as rescue is concerened, there is no requirement for there to be a double rope system employed whether that be for industrial or recreational use. The rope access industry does use a double rope system for carrying out rescues but in reality, if there was a rescue, they would probably use a single rope system. Not an issue, so long as the single rope doesn't fail.

Most training centres however would use a double rope system during rescue training.

Mark

 

[SpeleoTrog]

In Derbyshire we use the SARCALL system which is a web based SMS call out system so calling out, cancelling a call out or putting out a standby takes a matter of minutes on a computer rather than the days of old when it relied on people ringing down phone list

It would be great if all teams could agree on this. Some teams insist on the old system, even after basic maths shows that it would take over 10 hours to activate the whole team by phone.

 

[paul]

In Derbyshire we use the SARCALL system which is a web based SMS call out system so calling out, cancelling a call out or putting out a standby takes a matter of minutes on a computer rather than the days of old when it relied on people ringing down phone list

It would be great if all teams could agree on this. Some teams insist on the old system, even after basic maths shows that it would take over 10 hours to activate the whole team by phone.

The use of SARCALL certainly is a major improvement, but it certainly took nowhere near 10 hours when phones were used for a team call-out. I think your basic maths is flawed somewhere. The job of telephoning can be split among multiple callers each with a list of the team members to call. Providing the call is kept short and to the point, it wouldn't take as long as you imagine, especiallly if an initial "qucik response" team is despatched first followed by more members as needed.

 

[Basher]

Interesting debate,
as Warden of the Bradford PC hut, we have a call out board with expected time of return on it, which I action accordingly.
Over the past 2 years I have changed the philosophy of "expected time of return", meaning wait a while, or phone your friends to "That is the time we will initiate a "shout"!"
This is now explained to all fellow guest cavers staying at the BPC hut, the time they write is the time I lift the phone up & dial 999!
This seems to work really well unbelievably, folk know to leave a margin of time on their trips so all are out including the faffers, freshers & photographers, I normally get a courtesy call confirming this, and once time zero is reached they expect that call. "If we aren't out by X O'clock, we need help NOW!"
This system seems to work very well, the point is to make it understood in the first place.

Basher, BPC Hut Warden

 

[nickwilliams]

Personally, I don't agree that SARCALL is an improvement, but I accept that's probably a minority view.

 

[The Old Ruminator]

in case of injury an accurate assessment must be made as soon as possible. believe me the victim will underestimate his problem not wishing to make a fuss. so initially somebody must decide on self rescue or rescue. from experience i prefer the self rescue option to save time and motivate the victim. of course that depends on the nature of an injury and for anyone including a doctor things are very hard to diagnose in a cave. arms and hands are my specialty and in both cases self rescue was preferable. my hand call out situation was ridiculous with about 50 people milling about in Cheddar Gorge yet none in caving gear. The arrival of two fire engines was totally pointless. just about everyone else turned up as well so the response of the police and immediate chain was totally over the top.having some sort of first aid kit dump in a lengthy cave is total common sense yet rarely seen. we have learned that valuable lesson in reservoir.our tally to date two broken arms, one crushed hand and a dislocated shoulder. all self rescued. all cavers need a knowledge of basic first aid and clubs should do more regarding that and rescue scenarios. this happens a lot more in the diving world. rescue practices are fine but lack that panic and confusion usually accompanying a real situation.as i said the basic problem is understanding the extent of the situation.

 

[al]

Personally, I don't agree that SARCALL is an improvement, but I accept that's probably a minority view.

PM sent.

 

[droid]

You call out the Rescue when you feel the need.

I expect the Rescue would rather escort walking wounded out, than have a stretcher job because the callout came too late.

 

[Duncan Price]

my hand call out situation was ridiculous with about 50 people milling about in Cheddar Gorge yet none in caving gear.

The people with caving gear had been stood down once you were exiting and the dozen or so firefighters/police/paramedics still hanging around were doing so for reasons I have already alluded to.  At the time the initial call-out was instigated things looked very bad and I considered having my diving knife sent down...

Reservoir Hole probably ranks as the most accident prone cave in Britain: two broken arms, one crushed hand, a dislocated shoulder and facial injuries in 18 months.

 

[Peter Burgess]

It's not caves that are accident prone, it's CAVERS....... 

 

[Tony_B]

Interesting debate,
as Warden of the Bradford PC hut, we have a call out board with expected time of return on it, which I action accordingly.
Over the past 2 years I have changed the philosophy of "expected time of return", meaning wait a while, or phone your friends to "That is the time we will initiate a "shout"!"
This is now explained to all fellow guest cavers staying at the BPC hut, the time they write is the time I lift the phone up & dial 999!
This seems to work really well unbelievably, folk know to leave a margin of time on their trips so all are out including the faffers, freshers & photographers, I normally get a courtesy call confirming this, and once time zero is reached they expect that call. "If we aren't out by X O'clock, we need help NOW!"
This system seems to work very well, the point is to make it understood in the first place.

Basher, BPC Hut Warden

Interesting, but with respect this approach is somewhat at odds with common practice elsewhere and I think there is potential for misunderstandings.

At SWCC (we too have a ticket board system) the philosophy has always been that if a party has not returned within an hour of their stated 'time out' then a call-out is initiated. It is remarkable how often parties turn up within that hour window!

By far the largest majority of tickets on our board are for trips into Ogof Ffynnon Ddu, and the simple fact is that many parties underestimate the time it takes to do their intended trip. Many parties set out on through-trips with less than complete knowledge of the route, the cave is unbelievably complex and wrong turns or worse are common. Routefinding through the Cwm Dwr choke has caused countless late exits over the years. 

My worry about the BPC approach of a strict adherence to 'out times' is that it leads parties to add lots of extra time to their ticket 'to be on the safe side'. In the event, then, of a mishap which delays an entire party there's an extended delay before a call-out starts that would not occur if a realistic time for the trip had been used.