Calling out CRO - Protocol

[Tony_B]

Incidentally, I've always known about the "hours grace" at SWCC but thought that after that hour is when rescue is initiated; to hear that might not be the case is a bit worrying in my eyes. Initiating a shout early in case of poor weather etc is all well and good and commendable, but the comment that ""oh, it's just XXXX faffing about taking photos" and they were given a bit longer"..... if I was in need of rescue and someone didn't bother to come to look for me cos they thought I was faffing about, I would be pretty pissed off. If I was nearing call-out, I would not be taking photos.

Re-read my earlier post. I made it clear that this was a mistake and I described it to warn of the dangers of jumping to conclusions. I perhaps didn't represent the discussion well, it wasn't thought that 'XXXX' was still taking photos, it was more that XXXX's photo exploits had delayed the party over the course of whatever trip they were doing.

 

[caving_fox]

That is, what actual risk is there in choosing to leave a later callout time, given a particular expected/target trip time?

Well the hazard is death - a flooding situation progressing beyond recovery, an accident victim bleeding out, hypothermia kicking fatally in - or at least substantially worse injury/prognosis than would have been the case with an earlier rescue. But how much risk there is of such things happening is much harder to state? I think very very few rescues arrive just in the nick of time to prevent a bad situation getting worse, maybe 1 call-out a year for flooding and even then normally the party are in a safe if uncomfortable location and can wait a bit longer if necessary. Given the time to call rescue and then arrive pretty much all accident victims are going to be as stable as they can be.

SO maybe the hazard is actually uncomfortablness - and the risk is very high that the later callout will result in prolonged uncomfortableness for the victim.

Whether this results in a hazard/risk that requires mitigating action (eg a shorter callout time with commensurate risk of more false CRO events) is left to each party to decide.

 

[CatM]

Re-read my earlier post. I made it clear that this was a mistake and I described it to warn of the dangers of jumping to conclusions. I perhaps didn't represent the discussion well, it wasn't thought that 'XXXX' was still taking photos, it was more that XXXX's photo exploits had delayed the party over the course of whatever trip they were doing.

I know it was a mistake, but the fact that it happened I still see as a bit concerning, regardless of the people involved and the reason for delay (re-read the rest of the paragraph you quoted). I just hope the "lets give them a bit longer" attitude isn't a regular occurrence, that's all

 

[Peter Burgess]

This discussion has reminded me of the risks associated with solo trips, and what call-out arrangements go with that. You do not have the luxury of someone else to get out in the event of an incident to raise the alarm. So, the earlier you have a problem on a long solo trip, the greater the risk you put yourself at, as you will be waiting a LONG time to be found. I don't think there is much that can be done about it, just something to be aware of, if you do solo caving.

 

[Tony_B]

I just hope the "lets give them a bit longer" attitude isn't a regular occurrence, that's all

It isn't at SWCC. Look back at all my earlier posts in this thread, in particular the one where I mentioned the process of looking at a ticket and assessing the situation.

If, for example, a party of five has put a ticket on for a Top Entrance to Cwm Dwr through-trip quoting four hours, then if they're not out at the time on the ticket you'll give them an extra hour before doing anything. If a similar ticket says eight hours then there is obviously more concern and the decision might be made to send a couple of people into Cwm Dwr before the hour 'grace period' is up. Every situation is different and a judgment is made given all the available information.

My original point was this seemed to me a more sensible approach than initiating a call-out the moment an 'out time' has passed. 

 

[kay]

If, for example, a party of five has put a ticket on for a Top Entrance to Cwm Dwr through-trip quoting four hours, then if they're not out at the time on the ticket you'll give them an extra hour before doing anything. If a similar ticket says eight hours then there is obviously more concern and the decision might be made to send a couple of people into Cwm Dwr before the hour 'grace period' is up. Every situation is different and a judgment is made given all the available information.

My original point was this seemed to me a more sensible approach than initiating a call-out the moment an 'out time' has passed.

This means that at least two times have to be given - in this case "time in" and "call out".

If you're doing a non-club trip, and your call-out person is a friend or family member doing activities of their own, there's a lot of calculation to be done - what time are we setting out, what time will we arrive at the meeting place for the rest of the group, are we having breakfast after meeting,  what time will we actually reach the cave, get changed, and get into the cave. That's before even thinking about how long the trip will take, how long it'll take to get changed again, and get back to a mobile phone signal.

I used to leave my call out person (my non-caving son) a sheet giving expected time into cave, expected time out, then very clearly the call out time (along with all the other stuff like car reg, expected parking place and names and ages of rest of group, and full instructions on how to call CRO). Over-the top? Confusingly complicated? Fortunately, it was never put to the test.

 

[potholer]

That sounds like a good idea, if a non-caver is the call-out guardian.

 

[SpeleoTrog]

This means that at least two times have to be given - in this case "time in" and "call out".

If you're doing a non-club trip, and your call-out person is a friend or family member doing activities of their own, there's a lot of calculation to be done - what time are we setting out, what time will we arrive at the meeting place for the rest of the group, are we having breakfast after meeting,  what time will we actually reach the cave, get changed, and get into the cave. That's before even thinking about how long the trip will take, how long it'll take to get changed again, and get back to a mobile phone signal.

I used to leave my call out person (my non-caving son) a sheet giving expected time into cave, expected time out, then very clearly the call out time (along with all the other stuff like car reg, expected parking place and names and ages of rest of group, and full instructions on how to call CRO). Over-the top? Confusingly complicated? Fortunately, it was never put to the test.

Tony's example was specifically about using the board at Penwyllt so none of those concerns really apply to that situation. It's not too complicated to work out. If I'm using the board at Penwyllt then I know that the "callout" is an hour after the time out on the ticket. For caving anywhere else, the "callout time" is what ever time I tell my responsible contact it is.

 

[Antwan]

I used to leave my call out person (my non-caving son) a sheet giving expected time into cave, expected time out, then very clearly the call out time (along with all the other stuff like car reg, expected parking place and names and ages of rest of group, and full instructions on how to call CRO).

Thats exactly what I do with the other half if I need to use her as call out.