Callout times

[Hugh Jampton]

Thank you Graham, I see this now. It was being explained to me in far far greater detail and what was actually typed as the first starter was NOT as it was being explained. Hence it did not make sense. But then I could be thick!! No comments please.

 

[graham]

No worries.

Would you care to exapnd, as this is something of an important issue to cavers.

 

[Hugh Jampton]

I will later. Unfortunately work has intervened !

 

[Hatstand]

When we first started mooching around mines in north Wales years and years ago we never gave out times. Of course we would (usually, if there was someone about to tell) tell someone which mine we planned to go down, but it was always assumed that we would be back very very late so it was more a case of "if we're not here in the morning eating breakfast with you...." Of course there weren't mobiliums then so if we changed our plans during the night and ended up down `different`ole then potentially we were pretty screwed. But then this was all pretty badly organised, hell when I first started appropriate headgear was a woolly had and no trip was complete without somewhere from the party there being a constant

taptaptap  "tut" taptaptapTAP "mutter" taptaptaptaptap "bloody thing" taptaptaptaptap

as whichever unlucky soul who had caught one of wollys torches tried to coax it into illuminating his shoes for a few seconds.

There were in fact a couple of people who you definately DIDN'T tell where you were going, because they were prone to nervousness and if you weren't back 20 minutes later would go calling the police and mountain rescue, thunderbirds, you name it, and given half the oles we shouldn't have been down anyway this was generally a good idea to avoid.

I recall one trip where we suddenly realised we hadn't seen anyone to look out for us that my partner in crime and I spent most of the trip making up awfully bad joke newspaper headlines about how two idiots managed to dig their way out of trouble using our emergency equipment - a Gold Bar (tm) and a learn Welsh leaflet...

...but I digress.

HAD THERE BEEN a proper callout system in place with a board blah blah blah, we probably would have called out far more often than not, because we were AWFUL at judging how long a trip was going to take. YES if you were doing a well known trip taking a few new guys/gals round a well known grand tour, you could pretty safely say you'd be there, soggy footed at last orders, but other than that we were routinely out all night, hours and hours longer than we intended. (This had unexpected bonusses - I have seen some of the most spectacular sunrises on such trips!)

These days we're much better at it, and perversely, I suspect we need worry less as our experience which allows us to judge the length of a trip more accurately also makes us (possibly) less prone to requiring assistance.

Or does it? Do you get more likely to cock it up the more experienced you get so the more corners you cut? I can see a parallel argument to the one we have at work where new and old drivers are most at risk etc etc

Sorry this has turned into a bit of a ramble....

:blink:

 

[MSD]

1, if its a group you do not know you call out if not back at time X
2, within our group if not back at time X we go and check where parked and cave entrance then call out

although probably would agree should call out at time X, better to have a false alarm be embarrassed and have to buy the beer for the rest of the night

Assuming that the person(s) who have the callout time in front of them are competent cavers and in the region, there is of course a middle path, which is to do exactly what Badger describes, make a preliminary reconaissance. That could either be just to the entrance, or possibly underground as well, depending on the cave system and circumstances.

You don't have to ring Cave Rescue at the first sign of trouble if you have the competence to deal with an underground energency yourself, with the obvious caveat that if you are truly competent you should know when a situation is too difficult to handle on your own.

So...I wouldn't have been waiting for 1h40m. I would have gone looking for them (having given someone else a revised deadline for making a full call-out).

Obviously it depends on the cave. For example if a party was missing in Lost Johns, it takes only 10-15 minutes to get to the top of Dome or Centipede. If there is still no sign of them, then things don't look so good. Ideally I would be with more than one person and at that stage I would send someone out to raise a full call-out, while continuing on down myself (with basic emergency equipment, e.g. food, survival blankets, first aid kit etc.). On the other hand if a party is lost in Easegill or Daren Cilau, making any kind of quick search is very difficult.

In summary, I regard a call-out time as the time I have to do something. What I do is down to my judgement, it won't be a reflex action to pick up the phone and call cave rescue.

Even if you do ring the cave rescue, be prepared to have a discussion with the duty controller. You can then describe the situation, what cave, how many people, how experienced, when did they go underground, when were they expected back etc. The duty controller can then use his/her judgement and local knowledge to decide what to do. The controllers are pretty sensible people. A quite likely outcome is that they will send just a small team to do exactly the kind of reconnaissance I describe. They main advantage is that they will have comminucations equipment, which means thay can escalate the rescue faster if needed. So don't think if you call the rescue that you are necessarily going to incovenience dozens of people.

Obviously the situation is very different in other countries. Here in Sweden there has to be much more emphasis on self-reliance simply because the caves are in very remote places. It would take hours to respond to a rescue call-out and the total number of people that can be called out is not very large.

Hmmm. An important subject.

Mark

 

[graham]

Mark makes some good points. In the circumstance I described earlier, doing a personal recce is not a serious option as I am an hour's drive from the parking places. That would be an hour lost if the situation was serious. At Penwyllt, however, you are minutes from the entrance. If a prty is overdue there & teh place is full then you send a search party out first. Horses for courses.

 

[littlebear]

Assuming that the person(s) who have the callout time in front of them are competent cavers and in the region, there is of course a middle path, which is to do exactly what Badger describes, make a preliminary reconaissance. That could either be just to the entrance, or possibly underground as well, depending on the cave system and circumstances.

You don't have to ring Cave Rescue at the first sign of trouble if you have the competence to deal with an underground energency yourself

So...I wouldn't have been waiting for 1h40m. I would have gone looking for them (having given someone else a revised deadline for making a full call-out).

There were 2 above ground. We checked the entrance. I did not want to enter the cave because of my ability level at present and I would not have sent the other person down alone. Other club members were not in the vicinity to be called to physically help.

 

[MSD]

Just to be clear about one thing, I was only stating what I would do. I'm not implying any criticism of what you did, obviously how you respond depends on your own circumstances (distance to entrance, caving ability, numbers, etc.).

Mark

 

[paulf]

Use a Home Contact ! Not Related to anyone on the Trip
When I'm being the Home Contact they know that if they don't ring me Cave Rescue's Called.
It all depends on the Leaders & trip in question but everyone knows after an hour Cave Rescue's Called. It makes all aware of the need for realistic call out time s. No point saying your going to be three hours on a four hour trip or not checking your Watch & having a proper turn a round time to adhere to. The other side of the coin is not to give your self's to long a call out because you wouldn't want to be waiting hours for rescue to arrive.
Hopefully with a home contact you won't have to be put in this situation again.

 

[damian]

The system I - and the people I tend to cave with - use depends on the person who is on callout duty. If they are an individual living away from the caving area (e.g. relative or other caver non caving that day) then we leave one time which is an absolute callout time. If we have not made contact by this time, they will attempt to contact us (incase we have forgotten to cancel call out) and will then immediately phone Cave Rescue.

If, however, there are a number of groups of us caving on the same day in the same area, then we have a much more flexible approach allowing for the other cavers to come and look for us, perform a self rescue (if appropriate), or simply call out Cave Rescue immediately if they deem it appropriate. In all of these cases, somebody would definitely drive to the car park just before the callout time to reduce the chances of an unnecessary callout.

The one thing that does worry me about the latter system is what would happen if there were a flash flood and both (or all) the parties were stranded underground, as we do not tend to operate a separate callout left with someone who is not underground on that day. Maybe we should?

 

[Hugh Jampton]

Well, I did say I would expand but all is sorted now and specific people who were underground will be spoken to. Not much to add really but the salient points raised have been taken on board. The Cabin Warden will now be producing a call out board similar to that of SWCC's. people on the surface did exactly the right thing. Specific people who were underground need to learn not to be so flippant.

End of story. 

 

[Peter Burgess]

So it's all  :hug: now, and not 

 

[hoehlenforscher]

In a word, yes. In several words, I don't want to make you feel bad but yes. It's a tricky decision that would benefit from a rule of thumb: at SWCC (other people can advise about other clubs) the 'time out' on the ticket is the group's own latest estimated time out. Rescue is called one hour after this time, no matter what............................

Maybe this has changed but the one and only time I have been "rescued" was by a call out from SWCC who met us about 50 yards inside of top entrance. We were still 10 minutes inside the time shown on the card in the hut. In fairness we had had chronic lamp failure in the main streamway due to lamps we had hired from a reputable source having only about 1.5 hours of life in them. We were passed by a party at the OXbows going the other way as we were sorting out emergency lighting for half the group. That party got out before us and told everyone they could that we were in real trouble. This was untrue but we obviously couldn't move as fast as we would have liked on emergengy lighting. In any case I did not enjoy having to give names etc to the police who had also been called and we were made to feel very stupid for initiating a callout that was not necessary and not really due to any fault of our own. The result of this has been that ever since I will always add a couple of extra hours on to what ever time I think is reasonable for a slow trip. If the rescue had given us an hours grace (or even waiting until our ETA)  then we would have had no probs at all.

This was 20 years ago so maybe its all different now!

 

[emgee]

Slightly different situation as it's based on telephone contacts & not a notice board, but I frequently act as call out for our club's parties underground. When agreeing a time with them the decision is simple. If they do not contact me by time X then that is the time at which I call the rescue.

Simple, not capable of misunderstanding, and they know that I will do it.

This has caused someone to leave the rest of the party at the entrance to run back to the car, grab the mobile & leg it uphill until they've got a decent signal, but it does make them very good at estimating trip length.

And BTW it is worth pointing this out, though I have said it before; DO NOT rely on text messages. There is absolutely no guarantee they will get through quickly.

Longest I've ever had one was fourteen days. But the important part is there is no guarantee of supply built into the protocol. If you haven't got a text back saying got your message you can't assume anyone has read it.

 

[emgee]

.... though a single time seems simpler, what does one do between the two times if a party is late?

Not drink!

Was about to say worry but you're advice is bettter.

 

[Hatstand]

I'm not sure the right question is being asked really. Instead of asking "how long do you leave it after the time" I would have thought a more useful question would be "How do you best estimate the callout time in the first place". Obviously you take a best guess at how long your trip will take based on experience and guide books etc etc but then do you put that time up, or put that time plus a bit for non emergency type delays, or do you put up a "there's definately gonna be something seriously wrong by now" long time?

If its a long trip I think its all becoming rather academic anyway. Here we all are arguing the toss as to whether to wait an hour or not, if the trip is 8 hours long and the emergency arose in the first hour, you've already lost 7 so another hour here or there isn't frankly going to make a great deal of difference is it??!!

 

[darkplaces]

I would say its common amongst mine-explorers not to leave out times with people or publicly post were they are going due to the fact that;

a) Mines seam to closed for some silly reason when it seams 'ok' to enter caves - so you cant tell world+dog were your going as its 'secret'.
b) you want to spend time just wandering with no surface plans, you might spend 3 hrs or 14hrs if it goes.
c) You object to being tied to an exit time and other people interfering with your own personal safety.

But then it IS a choice isn't it, and I think people should be allowed to choose. having said all that a loose phone call arrangement with no ETOut, just 'we should be back before dark, or light' occurs more and more, maybe you safety obsessed lot are getting to us renegades, or were all getting old.

*additional: Hatstands point is very true, the last person could fall with the rope at the 1st pitch! 20mins in.

 

[graham]

Hatstand

It all depends on the nature of the problem, doesn't it. Many injuries can result in a call-out being made by a member of the party, whereas overdue calls usually result from parties being lost or trapped.

I agree this doesn't cover all possibilities but some system is better than no system.

Darkplaces

Who is preventing you from choosing whether to make a sensible precautionary plan or not?

On a different note I have to say that your use of the term "renegade" is highly amusing in this context in particular.

 

[Peter Burgess]

I think Darkplaces, you speak perhaps for yourself, and those you accompany into mines. This is definitely not the way I or my colleagues work nowadays -we would treat a mine and a cave call-out in exactly the same way. As for how you deal with a call-out procedure for a place where you "shouldn't be", are you seriously suggesting that you would rather be left to die in an old mine rather than have the embarrassment of being rescued from a "secret" mission. It's a very noble sacrifice to make to protect access for those who would survive your unfortunate demise.

 

[paul]

I think Darkplaces, you speak perhaps for yourself, and those you accompany into mines. This is definitely not the way I or my colleagues work nowadays -we would treat a mine and a cave call-out in exactly the same way. As for how you deal with a call-out procedure for a place where you "shouldn't be", are you seriously suggesting that you would rather be left to die in an old mine rather than have the embarrassment of being rescued from a "secret" mission. It's a very noble sacrifice to make to protect access for those who would survive your unfortunate demise.

You're right, Peter.

Darkplaces: Rest assured that once relatives or friends realise you are missing, the local CRO WILL be called out via the Police, so why not make their job easier and leave details of where you have gone and when you are expected back?

As to "secret" and "renegade": there are many cavers with ongoing digs which they have no wish to broadcast their location nor existence. But if they are wise they ensure somebody has the information along with a call-out time in case of a mishap.

Otherwise expect a very, very long wait if you ever need assistance...