Cavers - why do we bicker about access so much?

[todcaver]

I think the main cause of bickering is people assuming everyone else don't give a toss when really just like the rest of the world it's just a few who ruin it for everyone else ,  then there's the access issues when certain people seem to gain entry to mine systems for over 2 years whilst everyone else is told no entry -  then everyone else finds out years later they've been in there the whole time then brag by posting YouTube vids on here ! 

 

[Pegasus]

I suggest that the majority of cavers see their activities as sport - physical exercise, and challenges being the main aspects of what they do.

For this caver, the very caves themselves - how they sound, the pretties, the huge chambers, the scalloped walls,  the water trickling/roaring/falling/eroding, feeling a draught, etc etc etc etc is so very important as is the 'teamwork' feeling of being underground with fellow cavers.  Big or small, UK or abroad they are magical places.

 

[Ian Adams]

I think the main cause of bickering is people assuming everyone else don't give a toss when really just like the rest of the world it's just a few who ruin it for everyone else ,  then there's the access issues when certain people seem to gain entry to mine systems for over 2 years whilst everyone else is told no entry -  then everyone else finds out years later they've been in there the whole time then brag by posting YouTube vids on here ! 

You're pointing the gun at the wrong club ......



Ian

 

[todcaver]

If so I apologise , who should " the gun " be pointed at 

 

[Wayland Smith]

If so I apologise , who should " the gun " be pointed at 

NOT UCET!
A bit further north (still in North Wales.) :halo:

I am not now, nor have I ever been, a member of UCET!

 

[RobinGriffiths]

It appears Cae Mawr Shaft is open anyway. There's a trip report by Derbyshire Caving Club there in Feb 2013. So I guess, If you've got a 500' rope then Bob's your uncle.

Robin

 

[todcaver]

Bickering caused one of the entrances to be blocked ! Possibly more ! Or so I've been led to believe , apparently you didn't or don't need a 500 metre rope you just had too / have to be in a special club that nobody's allowed to join ! 

 

[Brains]

Bickering caused one of the entrances to be blocked ! Possibly more ! Or so I've been led to believe , apparently you didn't or don't need a 500 metre rope you just had too / have to be in a special club that nobody's allowed to join ! 

...and that in a nutshell is caving politics in the NW Outcrop...

 

[cavemanmike]

[...and that in a nutshell is caving politics in the NW Outcrop...

we are trying our very best to be the complete opposite but it's a hard thing to do with some clubs, there almost "private mens clubs" 

 

[Peter Burgess]

It amuses me sometimes to see the holier than thou comments on here. One subject that doesn't get much argument on here seems to be North East Wales - not because there are no problems, but because the side you don't hear from don't appear to be interested in contributing much. I can see why, and get sufficient info away from this forum to be aware that there are always two sides to big issues. But, as with other issues, those that vocalise the loudest often create the illusion that they are the sole occupiers of the moral high ground.

 

[cavemanmike]

no moral high ground under my feet peter , just a piece lovin caver  :kiss2: :kiss2:

 

[badger]

don't know about all the politics with north wales, been told its complicated, however have had dealings with Ucet and found them very helpful, 
we in the south have plenty of underground systems locally, and access is controlled on behalf of the landowner by another club. I cant speak for any other clubs but we in west sussex get on very well with the access club and I have always found them helpful in advice to the systems if I have had questions. So clubs can work together. so it then begs the question why the politics and issues. it can only come down to individuals for what ever reason causing the rifts, antognism, or what ever name you would like to give it. unfortunately this within some humans and not others, a small minority causing issue for the majority. it is not just caving we see this but in lots of everyday situations. not good but that is the way it is. some will say the emocion above are yellow, some will say there orange some will say the red. some will accept that to different people they see a different colour. some will argue there cause and accept the other person might have a point and accept to agree to disagree. some will just agrue and make life difficult as they can

 

[mikem]

& then there are internet "heroes" on the forums...

Mike

 

[Alex]

Just be glad we are not like this: Not safe for work!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QyYaPWasos

 

[Badlad]

Class 

 

[cap n chris]

& then there are internet "heroes" on the forums...

Mike

You mean you?

 

[Brains]

I see the thread re CAL has been justifiably locked after falling into the long expected bickering, but why? Seems the latest spat was over a perceived difference in opinion about how access groups are perceived.
I would say promoting easy access is a good thing, hindering it is the opposite. Deliberately missing a point like this leads to upset, abuse and name calling - and then another thread on the subject is locked.
So how could that be avoided? In a contentious scenario, trying to argue FOR the opposing point in your own head before posting can lead to insights that a simple knee jerk response does not. Also make allowance for sarcsm and humour, which dont seem to translate well into on line posts. Long posts with many points seem to be read as a single item, losing the broader scope of meaning and intent

 

[royfellows]

Some very interesting points with which I broadly agree.

I train four nights a week and missed it all last night, which is probably a good thing as I may have posted in haste. Reading through this morning I was left bewildered, and indeed angry.

You say "promoting easy access is a good thing, hindering it is the opposite."
We have to remember that there are some who for reasons of their own would disagree with that statement in varying degrees ranging from extreme polarization down to a few misgivings.

So there is possibly a simple answer to this thread topic?

A thought occurred to me this morning and I hope that I am not treading on dangerous ground and starting something which will take this thread in the same direction, but Wills Hole cave is on the Craig y Dinas mineral area.
Time to don my kevlar vest?

 

[Brains]

[off topic]Had to google that one, info I found stated "no known access restrictions" - other than the gorge flooding. As it is near the Dinas Silica Mines I take it you were hinting at including this site in the umbrella of the CMT? There are few issues to raise so I see little need for body armour, other than preventing a silica rash! [/off topic]

 

[royfellows]

[off topic]Had to google that one, info I found stated "no known access restrictions" - other than the gorge flooding. As it is near the Dinas Silica Mines I take it you were hinting at including this site in the umbrella of the CMT? There are few issues to raise so I see little need for body armour, other than preventing a silica rash! [/off topic]

It already is in a way.

The Craig y Dinas mineral 'estate' is owned by Natural Amenities Ltd, a private company limited by shares of which I own 50%, the other belonging to CMT. I am also the only human director. CMT acts as ACB for the Upper Silica Mine 'on paper' to avoid NAL having to pay BCA membership, however this may be reviewed at coming CMT AGM.

As mineral owners NAL have equal rights over the cave to the landowner, the cave itself being a void or airspace belonging to the landowner, the surrounding strata belonging to the mineral owner. That is my take on it after a lot of legal research. In any event mineral owner has rights over it anyway which are the implied rights that go with mineral ownership.

The situation could actually be beneficial to cavers who want a written permission for access because of a specific project, say  insurance purposes or whatever, in that NRW being a large and multi tiered organisation, problem, I acting for NAL could simply sign the matter off myself. Simple.